Acts 15

popeman
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Re: Acts 15

Post by popeman » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:07 pm

RND stated this about the ACT15 discussion about a mandating council “…That might have been true at one point when the young church was forming. But nowadays no church has authority to declare who is saved based on anything but the teaching of Jesus.”

If the young church had that authority then does anyone have any historical writings/proof that this church was later not to have such authority, such as the statement is made “…nowadays no church has authority…”. You would think that if a church had such a huge ability to mandate such authority then when it was removed all sorts of discussion would have occurred. Heck, when Antioch got the mandated ruling there was great celebration and the Bible writes about it.

So, does anyone have any writing from an early Christian (post canonized scripture) that can substantiate this claim? Thanks. Popeman

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RND
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Re: Acts 15

Post by RND » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:08 pm

popeman wrote:RND stated this about the ACT15 discussion about a mandating council “…That might have been true at one point when the young church was forming. But nowadays no church has authority to declare who is saved based on anything but the teaching of Jesus.”

If the young church had that authority then does anyone have any historical writings/proof that this church was later not to have such authority, such as the statement is made “…nowadays no church has authority…”. You would think that if a church had such a huge ability to mandate such authority then when it was removed all sorts of discussion would have occurred. Heck, when Antioch got the mandated ruling there was great celebration and the Bible writes about it.

So, does anyone have any writing from an early Christian (post canonized scripture) that can substantiate this claim? Thanks. Popeman
Popeman, I didn't stutter.

"...no church has authority to declare who is saved based on anything but the teaching of Jesus.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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smcllr3
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Re: Acts 15

Post by smcllr3 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:01 pm

popeman wrote:If the young church had that authority then does anyone have any historical writings/proof that this church was later not to have such authority, such as the statement is made “…nowadays no church has authority…”. You would think that if a church had such a huge ability to mandate such authority then when it was removed all sorts of discussion would have occurred.


Mr. Popeman,
I appreciate your responses even if they are toward RND. I believe that the Apostles were only binding on earth what had already been bound in heaven, leaving the salvation rules and regulations completely up to God. I also believe that the Apostles only had authority as long as they spoke the words of God. The words of God are truth and the Apostles had divine appointment and revelation to speak the words of God that we may not have known previously (i.e. the application of old testament prophecy and law). So, we can trust their words as long as they conform to the teachings of God and Christ. The same is true for those who speak the true word of God even today because the words of God have authority even if we do not. Jesus himself was not opposed to this (Matthew 23:2,3). It is the responsibility of the believer to search the scriptures in order to judge their words to the standard of truth, be it The Apostles or contemporary prophets, evangelists, teachers, or pastors.

All that is to say that I believe the Church has authority as long as it conforms to the word of God. If you stick to that rule then "Yes" some will take the scriptures and invent doctrines that have the appearance of being from God to make themselves rich, but those who are committed to truth and not their own lusts or preferences will not follow such people because they will have their senses trained. Factions will definitely be present, but maybe it is necessary in order to show who it is that is approved. I believe this is so, and if so we should be looking for the ones who are Holy and are content with nothing more than food and clothing to attach ourselves to and fellowship with. Those are the ones who will have the Glory of the LORD as their rearguard.

Now, can you find and/or reference anywhere in scripture that after the early church lost the presence of the Apostles that the foundation that they and the prophets had laid would be insufficient or obsolete? You haven't established yet that your view has any basis other than your own preference.

popeman wrote: Heck, when Antioch got the mandated ruling there was great celebration and the Bible writes about it.
Now this is the reason for this thread. Please Mr. Popeman, show me that there really was a mandate. I'm asking in humility because if I'm wrong then it will be easily posted, referenced, or even alluded to so that I can look it up and then I would be the all time loser of this debate. You have the upper hand if you are right, unless your statements are merely ipse dixit, and then I guess even I understand the lack of correspondence.

Peace,
Sam
"For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." II Samuel 14:14

popeman
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Re: Acts 15

Post by popeman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:42 pm

Peace Sam,

Everything you said has been “I” believe. This is my very point ….why is your “I” superseding Tom’s “I”. He is just as much a Christian as you.

This is a perfect Antioch/ACT15 scenario….two Christians “believe” they are correct and there is complete confusion. Is God the author of confusion or the devil?

You said…. “I believe that the Apostles…we can trust their words as long as they conform to the teachings of God and Christ……It is the responsibility of the believer to search the scriptures in order to judge their words to the standard of truth….etc. You appear to think you have been conforming to the Word of God by virtue of your own ability/inability to understand difficult scripture which is terribly dangerous. Scripture tells us that there will be those that wrestle with difficult scripture to their detriment…can that be you or Tom?
Earlier, you, intentionally or not, besmirched/slandered my name which I felt was a direct violation of the 9th Commandment….Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor…. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor….Do not accuse anyone falsely.

Before I bring up this point let me state that I do not hold that against you. Also, the point whether I feel or you feel that the 9th commandment was violated is strictly “personal opinion” but still within the church community of Christian believers. One or both of us can be wrong, but had I wished to take you to Scriptural task on this then, as a Christian, I have such a right.

Matt 18:15 says it very well “15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (NIV says in its commentary to “excommunicate” since this was the likes of a pagan/tax collector).

Lets walk with this for the sake of discussion and to get away from ACTS15 for a second. First, I accuse you but you see no fault. Second, we take it to two or more and you still do not see your fault. As a Christian, I want to exercise my Third right, I wish to take you to that Church in Matt18. Where is it? Where is that Church that has such authority to treat you like a pagan/tax collector if you still do not listen?

Now, it can not be that Church Collective (believers) because that was addressed already in the second part where it says take it to two or more. To go backwards to a Church collectiove would be going backwards which makes no sense. The Scriptural definition of a Church is right in Matt18:19-20, 19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." So we know where two or more are gathered with Christ there is a Church. Ironically, Matt 18:17 takes this Church further…it gives this Church authority over another Christian.

So here we are, a Catholic Christian accusing another Christian (Protestant) of sinning against them. He uses Scripture because God is not the author of confusion and wants peace amongst his believers and not division (all of ACTS 15 speaks to this) . Now, we have another scripturally situation that has nothing to do with authority and salvation (your contention with ACTS 15) but everything to do with sin. So I have pointed to one of the 10 Commandants that you have potentially violated and I want to correct the problem.
God would not be the author of scriptural confusion by saying “well, Popeman you go to your Catholic Church and you go to your Protestant Church and start throwing accusation back and forth again…yep, that will solve it”. No, God is the author of Peace. He showed us in ACTS15 where there was contention (not just salvation, much to do about Mosaic Laws) and a Church took authority over another Christian(s) who saw their ill-ways and REJOYCED!

Now, the scenario, real or perceived, can still be made very real in today’s real Christian world. Scripture gives two Christians a way out of their problem. Where is that Church in Matt18:17 that can treat you (others) as a pagan/tax collector (ie, excommunicated via NIV scholars)?

Peace, Popeman

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