Acts 15

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smcllr3
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Acts 15

Post by smcllr3 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:03 am

Popeman, I apologize to you. It was a lame attempt with the nickname and I'm sorry. I don't even care what you had to say to or about me. I will remain completely objective from now on. I won't even approach the subjects with the anti-catholic thing that you dislike. If you would engage me in conversation, I'll not act ridiculous anymore. Please forgive me.
Popeman, in another post, on a similar topic, wrote:That is why Acts 15 is so important, Tom. It shows how even the earliest Scriptural Christians submitted to the Church Authority when Christian doctrine interpretation was in doubt. There was a body of Church Authority that “mandated” (that is a scriptural word and it mean to ‘an authoritative order or command, to order or require; make mandatory’) what Paul, Barnabus and the whole congregation at Antioch was to believe … not what “they” interpreted!
Now, the most disturbing thing to me about this idea of Acts 15 is the statement, "There was a body of Church Authority that “mandated” what Paul, Barnabus and the whole congregation at Antioch was to believe … not what “they” interpreted!"

If this is the understanding of the RCC of Acts 15 then I have to say it is unfounded. It was absolutely interpreted and never commanded. But that's my interpretation so please, I would really like it if someone could explain where in the passage do you see a mandate that the churches should believe anything. And what in the passage leads you to believe that they were not interpreting? And do you think it is impossible for a true Christian to arrive at the same conclusion that the Apostles did without a mandate?

These are not loaded questions. I genuinely wish to know the Catholic answer to them for further discussion.

Thank you,
Sam
"For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." II Samuel 14:14

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Re: Acts 15

Post by RND » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:19 pm

Sam, I'm always amazed that the underlying reason for the Council of Jerusalem's actions seem to be always overlooked whenever the questions of Acts 15 is broached.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

The question was "Who could be saved." And certainly the answer by the council was in relationship that question, and they had the authority to make a decision. This was not to suggest that the council had the power to declare anything they wanted, for these verses clearly limit their ability to the question of "salvation" in this particular passage.

The Roman Catholic church for many centuries has made claims regarding it's absolute authority regarding scripture and salvation. Sadly, iIt uses Acts 15 in a vain attempt to hold on to power it was never given.

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Re: Acts 15

Post by smcllr3 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:05 pm

RND wrote:The question was "Who could be saved." And certainly the answer by the council was in relationship that question, and they had the authority to make a decision.
"They had the authority to make a decision?" I'm not sure I see that they were exercising authority. I would say that anyone has the authority to make a decision, and each displayed that kind of authority but did the Apostles and the elders mandate what the Church should believe anything in Acts 15? I don't see them doing that anywhere in Acts 15.

I attribute as much authority to the Apostle's teaching as I do Christ's. But that is based on my interpretation of Christ's commands.

I don't see any mandates given in Acts 15, and I do see open interpretation. Can anyone explain where a mandate is given concerning what anyone had to believe and that without interpretation? If the statement Popeman made was correct then I would think that I could find it in Acts 15. But seeing that I do not, maybe a Catholic sharing Popeman's understanding or Popeman himself could point out the verses indicating what his statement affirms.

Thank you,
Sam
"For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." II Samuel 14:14

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Re: Acts 15

Post by RND » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm

Well, as I mentioned, "This was not to suggest that the council had the power to declare anything they wanted, for these verses clearly limit their ability to the question of "salvation" in this particular passage."

For example, none of these men gathered as a council were permitted to state who was entitled to heaven, and thus salvation, by of the own means, opinions and devices but by the clear teaching of Jesus. Jesus never said or taught that a man had to be circumcised to be saved. The council was simply clarifying what they were taught by Jesus and stating that. Their mandate was in relation to everything that Jesus taught and nothing more. Based on what they were taught and had learned from Jesus, and nothing more, they had the authority to make a decision.

I think I should have added this for clarity.

They were certainly not free to use force, fear, intimidation or manipulation in order to assert their authority as the RCC likes to claim.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Acts 15

Post by smcllr3 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:40 pm

I understand what you're saying. I am just asking for an example from someone who says that Acts 15 gives a case where a council mandates something for people to believe that is not interpreted.

I don't know if I disagree with you, RND. However, when you said they had the authority to make a decision I thought that maybe you saw a mandate given in the passage. That is the only reason I responded to your post in that manner.

Peace,
Sam
"For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." II Samuel 14:14

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Re: Acts 15

Post by RND » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:37 pm

smcllr3 wrote:I understand what you're saying. I am just asking for an example from someone who says that Acts 15 gives a case where a council mandates something for people to believe that is not interpreted.

I don't know if I disagree with you, RND. However, when you said they had the authority to make a decision I thought that maybe you saw a mandate given in the passage. That is the only reason I responded to your post in that manner.

Peace,
Sam
Oh, no worries Sam, I don't know that "the authority" was the best word to use, as I think I should have been more clear in my first post here. Suffice to say that whatever "authority" the first council at Jerusalem had it only had that authority based on what Jesus taught and no more.

I can certainly say I agree with your inquiry though "...where a council mandates something for people to believe that is not interpreted." I think that's why I felt compelled to include some of the quotes that I did. The RCC has a bad habit of stating one thing and saying another regarding doctrine but never really changing.
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Re: Acts 15

Post by popeman » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:53 pm

Excuse me, but one of the post statements was made "they had the authority to make a decision" in regards to being saved. Where does it say in Scripture they had the authority to make any decesion? It is an inference, not a statement. That being said, if salvation is a doctrinal matter of technique "I confess my sins and you are Lord God"( ie, saved) or related to a Jewish aspect of being a Christian (converts), then there is a plethora of Christian doctrine that can be questioned. If it can be questioned as right/wrong then someone/council will have the authority to mandate a binding decesion on that aspect being questioned.

Also, since our salvation in/through Jesus Christ is bigger than any other issue in Chrsitiandom why would it be out-of-bounds for this Council to mandate on smaller/less dramatic issues of Chrsitian worship. To say, a council can bind a decsion that will affect your eternity with God, but can not bind a decision on Mary's virginity, purgatory...etc is in itself out-of-bounds.

Now, if you held the position that the Council can mandate only a decsion on trivial aspects of being a Christian then I could see that they would have no authority on salvation issues. You did not say that though. You said the Council had the authority to decide on matters of salvation. Peace Popeman

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Post by Jill » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:30 pm

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Re: Acts 15

Post by RND » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:38 am

popeman wrote:Excuse me, but one of the post statements was made "they had the authority to make a decision" in regards to being saved.


Not quite. The actual statement was:

"The question was "Who could be saved." And certainly the answer by the council was in relationship that question, and they had the authority to make a decision. This was not to suggest that the council had the power to declare anything they wanted, for these verses clearly limit their ability to the question of "salvation" in this particular passage."

They had the authority to make a decision regarding what was required for salvation based on what they were taught by Jesus and nothing else.
Where does it say in Scripture they had the authority to make any decesion? It is an inference, not a statement.
They has an authority based on being chosen disciples of Jesus. They were taught, and they were shown what it was that they were to do.
That being said, if salvation is a doctrinal matter of technique "I confess my sins and you are Lord God"( ie, saved) or related to a Jewish aspect of being a Christian (converts), then there is a plethora of Christian doctrine that can be questioned. If it can be questioned as right/wrong then someone/council will have the authority to mandate a binding decesion on that aspect being questioned.
That might have been true at one point when the young church was forming. But nowadays no church has authority to declare who is saved based on anything but the teaching of Jesus.
Also, since our salvation in/through Jesus Christ is bigger than any other issue in Chrsitiandom why would it be out-of-bounds for this Council to mandate on smaller/less dramatic issues of Chrsitian worship.


Because they were never directed to by Christ.
To say, a council can bind a decsion that will affect your eternity with God, but can not bind a decision on Mary's virginity, purgatory...etc is in itself out-of-bounds.
That's just it Popeman, the council didn't do that. They simply stated that circumcision was not necessary for salvation. They didn't say that circumcision wasn't a good idea, they stated it was not necessary to be saved.
Now, if you held the position that the Council can mandate only a decsion on trivial aspects of being a Christian then I could see that they would have no authority on salvation issues. You did not say that though. You said the Council had the authority to decide on matters of salvation. Peace Popeman
Popeman, the council had no authority to say who was saved individually. They had the right to clarify matters based on what they were taught by Jesus Himself. It wasn't a council gathered to set the groundwork for how many "Hail Mary's" to say. It was a council gathered to specifically answer the question as to whether circumcision was required for salvation.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Post by Jill » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:17 pm

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