Converting to the RCC

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Sun May 31, 2009 7:23 pm

In the news today is the story of the murder of the infamous abortionist, George Tiller. As much of a shock as the murder was the fact he was a member in good standing of a Lutheran Church, where he was slain:

From the article in the New York Times:
Dr. Tiller had attended the church for a long time, they said, and had contributed significantly to construction of the current facility, which was built in about 1996.
It appears the church was built with "blood money"! Where have the Lutherans gone? I can see how Thomas would prefer the RCC.

And as troubling to me as the whole mess was my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred, and thinking that I should not have that feeling. As the Babylonians punished the Jews, and God took credit for it, did God, by His "permissive will", punish Tiller through the one who murdered him?

There is enough in this event for several threads.

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Sun May 31, 2009 10:51 pm

It is interesting to make such a comparison to sin and then punishment.

Recently, you will remember a plane carrying 7 children and 7 adults to a skiing trip in a small plane that crashed into a Montana cemetery. The cemetery was Catholic Holy Cross Cemetery owned by Resurrection Cemetery Association in Butte . The cemetery contains a memorial for local residents to pray the rosary, at the 'Tomb of the Unborn' in memory of aborted children.

This plane that crashed into Holy Cross killed family of Dr. Irving 'Bud' Feldkamp. This included 2 of Feldkamp's daughters, 2 sons-in-law and 5 grandchildren along with the pilot and 4 family friends. Feldkamp owned 17 California Family Planning clinics that perform more abortions in the state than any other abortion provider, Planned Parenthood included, and they perform abortions through the first 5 months of pregnancy.

He is not an abortionist (rather a dentist) but he still reaps profits of blood money from the tens of thousands of babies that are killed through abortions performed every year at the clinics he owns. His business in the abortion industry was what enabled him to afford the private plane that was carrying his family to their week-long vacation at The Yellowstone Club, a millionaires-only ski resort.

This must carry heavy on the remaining family. Much like in 2 Sam David’s sin with Bathsheba cost him the life of his son, here Feldkamp must live with the loss of family, too.

It is scary to be a predictor, a soothsayer, of occurrences like you have described or even to the same above. Would God use a murderer to kill an abortionist in a Church? God being all knowing and all powerful could have easily killed him with his car hitting a tree without using a sinful murder as a tool for His wrath. It is best to stay away from from such illuminations so that you do not become one yourself. God and Country

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:15 am

USMCatholic,

You wrote:
It is scary to be a predictor, a soothsayer, of occurrences like you have described or even to the same above. Would God use a murderer to kill an abortionist in a Church? God being all knowing and all powerful could have easily killed him with his car hitting a tree without using a sinful murder as a tool for His wrath. It is best to stay away from from such illuminations so that you do not become one yourself. God and Country
Are you saying I am in danger of becoming a predictor, a soothsayer, a murderer, an "illumination" (whatever that is) because, as you apparently did not notice, I asked a question? And expressed concern regarding my reaction to the event? If you read it carefully, I think you can see I made no statement of God's involvement.

So is it your view that God was taken by surprise by what happened to Tiller, and thus could not have prevented the murder, or that God foresaw it coming, but was powerless to intervene, or that He could have intervened but chose not to or what? That He is on the sidelines and can not or will not get involved in this world?

Excerpt from John Mark Hick's blog:
concurrentism (concursus). This affirms that divine and human actions (or nature, if a natural phenomenon) are concurrent in every event within the world. In other words, God is always working within every event, but each event is some kind of cooperative effort between God and the creation. God, therefore, is always a cause that works through or alongside other causes both human and natural. Consequently, nothing happens in the world in which God is not somehow involved and where God does not intend that something specific happen. In every event God acts alongside his creatures to accomplish specific goals, even if God’s goal is different from other actors in the drama. For example, whereas a human being may intend evil, God may, through that same event, intend good as in the case of Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 50:20; cf. Isaiah 45:1, 7, 12-13). As a result, God and his human agent worked concurrently to produce the event, but with different intentions and ultimately with the divine telos accomplished.
What is your view? Am I misunderstanding you?

Blessings, Homer

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:48 am

Hola:
Homer wrote:In the news today is the story of the murder of the infamous abortionist, George Tiller. As much of a shock as the murder was the fact he was a member in good standing of a Lutheran Church, where he was slain
Doesn't surprise me in the least. This is an ELCA Lutheran church. To quote Wiki:"The ELCA Board of Pensions, part of the ELCA corporate structure, covers elective abortions, including late-term and partial birth abortions." Another ELCA church in Witchita had an Elder by the name of Dennis Rader also known as the BTK serial killer. This is what you get when you teach "Jesus loves you just the way you are". Or to quote myself:
Salvation by faith. In other words we are all helpless sinners without hope but if we have faith and ask for forgiveness we wll recieve it and be saved. No repentance , no need to change , no hint of sanctification. Basicly do as you please and you are assured of your salvation as long as you think you have faith

This is a church which has labeled the Lutheran Confessions as "Dead Tradition" and reinterprets scripture to suit their agenda. They are also pushing through the ordination of gay pastors. All very creative Sola Scriptura , very PC.

The church I grew up in later became a part of ELCA in the late 70's. My father saw this and knew what would happen. He walked out the door. Same thing starting up with my own LCMS now.

Thomas

It's useless to recomend books etc.. I have no credit card nor mailing address , the bookstores wouldnt carry such things and my internet , like the Panama Justice System is slow and unreliable.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:02 am

RCMCatholic,

I have moved the discussion about God and Tiller's murder to the "Theology" category under "Miscellaneous". The issue is not about the RCC and Lutheran Church.

Blessings, Homer

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:57 pm

Homer,

You said “It appears the church was built with "blood money"!” and you make the strong satisfaction statement in saying “…. my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred [regardless of your feelings you were still satisfied]…”

I am sorry that I took away from your statements that you the church was built on was built on something less than Christian virtues because your statement appears to be “all encompassing”, dismissing all the good Lutherans that have tithed.

You also said “I made no statement of God's involvement”. Unfortunately, again I must have made a bad assumption in your previous post where you said “….the Babylonians punished the Jews, and God took credit for it, did God, by His "permissive will", punish Tiller through the one who murdered him?” (question) You also said “I made no statement of God's involvement” (statement) I think the question of inference and then the statement can be considered statements hiding under the guise of a question.

I personally would not have gone there because it appears to be an attempt of “illumination” (to shed light upon) on a Godly question when only God holds that lamp, not us. It also plays down the good Lutherans that hold dearly to their church through support and tithing.


Thomas. Never been to Panama but heard good things about it. If you have no problems with a gift, I would be happy to send you one of those books that is phenominal (Crossing the Tiber...the proof-text footnotes are as big as the text)
God and country

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:19 am

RCMCatholic,

You wrote:
You said “It appears the church was built with "blood money"!” and you make the strong satisfaction statement in saying “…. my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred [regardless of your feelings you were still satisfied]....
But I had written:
And as troubling to me as the whole mess was my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred, and thinking that I should not have that feeling.
I am not sure how you get a "strong satisfaction statement" out of that! Tiller was murdered. That is wrong. In my mind Tiller was an evil man. He is responsible for 60,000 babies being dead. He killed babies that could have survived outside the womb. He made millions of dollars doing it. The Lutheran Church he was a member of took his money and used it to build their building.

You wrote:
I am sorry that I took away from your statements that you the church was built on was built on something less than Christian virtues because your statement appears to be “all encompassing”, dismissing all the good Lutherans that have tithed.
They should have not accepted a penny from Tiller. He should have been kicked out of the church and shunned until he repented. Would your church have taken his money and kept him in fellowship? They are responsible for accepting and using money tiller made by killing babies.

You wrote:
You also said “I made no statement of God's involvement”. Unfortunately, again I must have made a bad assumption in your previous post where you said “….the Babylonians punished the Jews, and God took credit for it, did God, by His "permissive will", punish Tiller through the one who murdered him?” (question) You also said “I made no statement of God's involvement” (statement) I think the question of inference and then the statement can be considered statements hiding under the guise of a question.
You can think whatever you want. I am sure you are unaware of the long discussion we have had under the "miscellaneous" category regarding God's active and permissive involvement in this world. The Calvinist, following Augustine, who you claim as a Catholic, would say Tiller's murder was part of God's plan. At the other end of the spectrum, the open-theist would say God had nothing to do with it. My own view is that God is involved in each of our lives to the extent that there is no such thing as "luck". When He is not actively involved, He is passively involved. Nothing happens that He does not at least allow. He always has a "veto". "Not a sparrow falls apart from the Father".

Believing as I do, I must then face the implication of my belief in the murder of Tiller: God could have prevented it but, for His purpose, which we can not know, He chose to not intervene.

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:38 am

Homer wrote: At the other end of the spectrum, the open-theist would say God had nothing to do with it. My own view is that God is involved in each of our lives to the extent that there is no such thing as "luck". When He is not actively involved, He is passively involved. Nothing happens that He does not at least allow. He always has a "veto". "Not a sparrow falls apart from the Father".
I'm no expert on the Open view, but I think they would not say God had nothing to do with it. That view is primarily directed to God's future knowledge and whether God would know the outcome, not whether He participates or not. I think that view actually supports a greater degree of control by God as a means to ensure His purposes are fulfilled (since they would posit, He doesn't actually "know" beyond His knowledge of the influences (external and internal) and the myriad of inter-related reactions to those influences of those involved.

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:08 am

Hi Darrin,

I am not understanding your view of open-theism. Are you saying that, although God could not know ahead of time what the man who killed Tiller would do, nevertheless He could intervene at the last second to prevent the murder? If so, then God still "allowed" the murder to occur when He could have prevented it.

I am also puzzled by your statement:
I think that view actually supports a greater degree of control by God....
A greater degree of control as compared to my view? Calvinism? Please explain.

God bless, Homer

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:31 pm

Homer wrote:Hi Darrin,

I am not understanding your view of open-theism. Are you saying that, although God could not know ahead of time what the man who killed Tiller would do, nevertheless He could intervene at the last second to prevent the murder? If so, then God still "allowed" the murder to occur when He could have prevented it.

I am also puzzled by your statement:
I think that view actually supports a greater degree of control by God....
A greater degree of control as compared to my view? Calvinism? Please explain.

God bless, Homer
I think they would say that God knows enough about their present hearts and their present and past situations to predict what would happen and influence the situation to ensure His desired or permitted outcome.

I think I should have said "high degree" of "influence" rather than "greater" degree of "control."

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