Converting to the RCC

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 29, 2009 9:15 am

USMCatholic wrote:I am kind of disappointed with some of the forum responses relating you to almost being a weak-kneed husband that will simply follow his wife without looking into scripture and history himself.
I'm sorry if it seems this way -- frankly, I don't recall anyone making such a suggestion -- we have criticized the church and its teachings of course and have been a sounding board to bring things to the front that he might should confront, but that isn't meant to be a suggestion that he hasn't "thought it through." In fact, the opposite -- I have been particularly impressed at how much knowledge he seems to have about the various councils and doctrines. I just have a hard time seeing how he can ignore what he's been taught as a Lutheran, doctrinally. I certainly understand how praxis can have frustrated him (as it often does me), but I just see even that as being worse in most Catholic circles I've been exposed to. Anyway, I didn't even realize from the conversation that his decision had anything to do with his wife. Steve's last post is the first time it even really caught my attention. It is the very fact that Thomas seems to be a thinking man who takes such things as oaths and confessions and doctrine seriously that I have failed to see how he could change so drastically. Clearly from his later posts his doctrinal move here isn't as large as mine would be, so that answers much of my surprise at how someone informed could convert to the RCC.

Don't get me started with Beckwith.

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Michelle
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Michelle » Fri May 29, 2009 9:33 am

darinhouston wrote:
USMCatholic wrote:I am kind of disappointed with some of the forum responses relating you to almost being a weak-kneed husband that will simply follow his wife without looking into scripture and history himself.
I'm sorry if it seems this way -- frankly, I don't recall anyone making such a suggestion -- we have criticized the church and its teachings of course and have been a sounding board to bring things to the front that he might should confront, but that isn't meant to be a suggestion that he hasn't "thought it through." In fact, the opposite -- I have been particularly impressed at how much knowledge he seems to have about the various councils and doctrines. I just have a hard time seeing how he can ignore what he's been taught as a Lutheran, doctrinally. I certainly understand how praxis can have frustrated him (as it often does me), but I just see even that as being worse in most Catholic circles I've been exposed to. Anyway, I didn't even realize from the conversation that his decision had anything to do with his wife. Steve's last post is the first time it even really caught my attention. It is the very fact that Thomas seems to be a thinking man who takes such things as oaths and confessions and doctrine seriously that I have failed to see how he could change so drastically. Clearly from his later posts his doctrinal move here isn't as large as mine would be, so that answers much of my surprise at how someone informed could convert to the RCC.

Don't get me started with Beckwith.
Whew, I thought I really missed something, too. I thought perhaps a post was deleted somewhere back there.

And, ha! @ "Don't get me started wit Beckwith."

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thomas
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by thomas » Fri May 29, 2009 10:50 am

The Catholics here are considerately more conservative than what you would find in the U.S. They've avoided the Liberation Theology that hit the rest of Latin America years ago. They end up being quite Christ centered and the sermons are what I expect from the Lutherans and rarely hear.

I was part of the LCMS , a conservative branch of the Lutherans. The head office in St. Louis has come under the influence of the Fuller Theological Seminary , the seminary of Rick Warren. Moves in the direction of reinventing the church to be more "popular" have been under way for a while. Much of this violates Lutheran Doctrine. As a mission , dependant on the U.S. theres not much we can do.

A year ago all the trained missionaries worldwide were pulled back to the States. Preaching the Word of God is our buisiness , not theirs.They will send young people to do things like teach music or English , but nothing else. The problem is we have only three trained pastors (for 7 churches) , two of which should be in jail. The U.S. sends down money to train pastors , but it has been diverted to other purposes for the four years the locals have been in control. The Lutheran supervisor for the area knows this but is nearing retirement and does'nt want to make waves.

One of the things out of Fuller is the pastor as a CEO , he does the service and supervises but the members do all else. So when there is no Sunday School , Bible Study , visitations , it's our fault not his.

The other thing is the theology the pastor has been teaching. Salvation by faith. In other words we are all helpless sinners without hope but if we have faith and ask for forgiveness we wll recieve it and be saved. No repentance , no need to change , no hint of sanctification. Basicly do as you please and you are assured of your salvation as long as you think you have faith. Does away with whole chunks of the Lutheran Confessions.

This suits the pastor quite well. Besides being lazy and not doing anything , he is also a liar and a thief. The kind of person who will finish the communion and take a tenner out of the offering if he thinks no one is looking. He's been caught. He also rented out church property and pocketed the money , then lied about it to myself and the counsil for ten months until we were able to proove it. He payed back the money , no repentence nor even apology. There is more but you get the idea.


The result is a loss of 80% of the membership and the demoralization of the rest. Everyone has been fighting with each other and can't even decide to fire him. Besides we can't really get a replacement.

But the general idea that you can sin as you please is a part af the whole leadership. The president of the national commitee has just finished an affair with one of the young single missionaies , his second one. The commitee has been sucessfully getting money from the U.S. for projects that don't exist. They refuse to submit a budget , a finacial report ar have an audit. They have never had a valid election to their offices.

I was the leader of a delegation to the election. Found out that 60% of the delegates and 4 of the 7 churches were disqualified to vote on technicalities , so that the offices could go to the "proper" people. We walked out , but then I faced censur from some in the congregation for doing it. The congregation backed me 3 to 1.

But the worst is this. A few years ago one of the pastors , who is married with four kids , was caught making advances to a married woman of the church. He had to leave that one , but was given a newly built church near where I live. Not long after , he was caught molesting two teenage girls of his bible class. He resigned his pastorate in order to avoid charges that would have sent him to jail.

The man , a freind , who turned him in was hounded out of the church as a troublemaker. The missionary pastor , also a freind , tried to counsel the girls. A few months later he was fired and sent back to the states , also labeled as a troublemaker.

A year later I encountered this pastor , still on the payroll , running a Bible class for ....teenage girls. He has now been reinstated as a pastor back at the vary same church. Of course it doesn't have more than 4 or 5 members now.

One of my old freinds from here , a Lutheran missionary for over 30 years and one that was " releaved" , heard I was going Catholic and wrote "Good , I'm glad , it's about time". She knows all about Panama.

Not all is bad , there is one good pastor , who preaches the Word. He's very succesfuul , has achurch thats overflowing and has had to rent anouther house as a place to do addition services , given by a young man he has personaly trained. But I have no car , and it's much too far away to be a practical alternative.

So while I'm leaving behind some very good friends , I'm not leaving much of a church.
Dios te bendiga y te guarde

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 29, 2009 1:04 pm

All I can say is my heart broke when I read that -- I will pray for your situation -- it reminds me how much I need to be praying for the Church (or what calls itself such).

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Fri May 29, 2009 4:38 pm

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide’s misuse by nondenominational Christian groups appear to be Thomas’ concern when used without repentance or sanctification, ie, cheap grace , allowing for corruption and even criminality in the in both the officials and members of the church.

Not that the RCC is without its own corruption/sin because God never promised the church body to be sinless only that the Church authority to be pure truth (1 Tim 3:15). If any of you have doubts about your own church/group please go to http://reformation.com/ where you will see an abundance of church sinners from pastors to parishioners.

Thomas already stated “… I've come to see the RCC position to be superior. And also that the solas came out of the reformation and were not restoration of lost or corrupted doctrine. So it is an honest conversion and not one of convenience. And I no longer believe the RCC doctrines are fundamentally wrong.”, yet numerous posts appear to worry more about his spiritual journey while still not addressing his concern about Sola Scriptura/Fide and cheap grace, rather than telling him to go to the orthodox church down the street. Thomas, ask how many will take that tack first. Thomas also brought up the point that “…protestants say they have restored the true doctrines , that they can never agree on what those doctrines actually are. There ended up being 5 or 6 distinctive doctrines from the beginning, and it´s gotten worse since.”

Thomas, you are right on the money! After you catch and read that book by Beckwith when he was an Evangelical Christian you may want to read his latest book, “Return to Rome” where he is now an evangelizing Catholic Christian. After years as an Evangelical Christian he came to the very same conclusion you have come to…protestant, non-denominational Christians vacillate across the board in doctrine.

I am sure you have read these but if not, go pick up any one of these books/authors:

Dr. Scott Hahn: Rome, Sweet Rome
Presbyterian Pastor, now catholic
Tim Staples: The Bible Made Me Do It - The Conversion Story of Tim Staples
Assembly of God Pastor, now catholic (retired Marine like me)
Stephen Ray: Crossing the Tiber
Baptist Pastor, now Catholic
David Currie: Born Fundamentalist, Born Again CatholicFundamentalist pastor, now Catholic
Jeff Cavins: I’m Not being Fed
Evangelical pastor, Catholic to Protestant back to Catholic

You can also go to http://www.catholic.com/. Great group somewhere in San Diego. Regardless what direction you go, you appear to be a great guy who loves his family. Take care. God & Country

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 29, 2009 4:57 pm

Whatever you do, don't listen to any of James White's debates with those guys, or his commentaries of their radio show comments, speeches, book excerpts, etc.

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Fri May 29, 2009 7:01 pm

I would beg to differ with you about James White (Alpha and Omega Ministries). White is an ardent Protestant debater whom Catholics disagree with because it appears he lives and breaths to debate Catholic Christians.

I do feel some of his points are valid and his debate techniques are polished but like most Protestants he just can not swallow the “authority” pill regardless how he is offered it. White is definitely a Protestant battleship looking for some small destroyers to come across his bow. Thankfully, like the Bismarck, there are a number of very excellent Catholic apologists (some prior mentioned) that have taken on White quite successfully. You should listen to some of his debates. They are offered on several Catholic and Protestant web sites. White has also been known to come down hard on several Evangelical people/groups, so there are some in Protestant circles that do not appreciate him.

One person that dearly loves him and who has heard his debates since she can remember is Patty Bonds. Both were raised strong Baptists and….oh, did I tell you, they are brother and sister? The only difference is that White is still Protestant and his sister is Catholic. His sister converted to Catholicism several years ago with much grief from her brother, James. Patty’s conversion can be found in the book “SURPRISED BY TRUTH 3, page 183” (There is also a SURPRISED BY TRUTH 1 & 2).

So listen to James White and remember he could not even keep his own sister away from the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. God & Country.

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Homer
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by Homer » Fri May 29, 2009 8:56 pm

Thomas also brought up the point that “…protestants say they have restored the true doctrines , that they can never agree on what those doctrines actually are. There ended up being 5 or 6 distinctive doctrines from the beginning, and it´s gotten worse since.”
Don't be too hard on those protestants. They ran so hard in their escape from Babylon that some of them, in some matters, ran right by Jerusalem. Hopefully, they will find their way home but when things are tough, some head back to Babylon. Just like some of Israel longed for Egypt when they were in the desert.

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darinhouston
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 29, 2009 10:33 pm

USMCatholic wrote:I would beg to differ with you about James White (Alpha and Omega Ministries). White is an ardent Protestant debater whom Catholics disagree with because it appears he lives and breaths to debate Catholic Christians.

I do feel some of his points are valid and his debate techniques are polished but like most Protestants he just can not swallow the “authority” pill regardless how he is offered it. White is definitely a Protestant battleship looking for some small destroyers to come across his bow. Thankfully, like the Bismarck, there are a number of very excellent Catholic apologists (some prior mentioned) that have taken on White quite successfully. You should listen to some of his debates. They are offered on several Catholic and Protestant web sites. White has also been known to come down hard on several Evangelical people/groups, so there are some in Protestant circles that do not appreciate him.

***.
I actually have watched or listened to a good number of his debates with Catholics, and have heard some of their after-debate color suggesting how they "beat him" so soundly -- nothing could be further from the truth -- maybe the Road Home folks who didn't hear it "buy it," but it's a pretty hard sell. I know Catholics think he's just a one-mission man -- but, actually, he has spent less time debating Catholics than others. He got his start and spends most of his time debating and evangelizing mormons, and most recently about all he seems to do is debate Muslims. He also has spent a lot of time debating anyone (including Steve Gregg) who isn't a Calvinist, and liberal textual critics.

Bottom line -- he's an equal opportunity basher. I think he is cursed with the merits of his Calvinist arguments, but I've never heard him lose a Catholic argument.

Can you point me to a debate where any catholic "cleaned his clock" or even dealt handily with his arguments?

USMCatholic
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Re: Converting to the RCC

Post by USMCatholic » Fri May 29, 2009 11:06 pm

Why go there? Why go in that direction? You will only sound like a ping pong ball, a tit for tat, a neener neener neener. You will take away from White's debates what you will want to take away, just like any other would. Why tell Thomas not to listen to White? Why wouldn't Thomas want to listen to White? God & Country

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