‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to Unite

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TK
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:25 pm

from wikipedia:
"The Council of Trent reaffirmed traditional Christian teaching that the Mass is the same Sacrifice of Calvary offered in an unbloody manner: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different ... And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner... this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." [7] The Council declared that Jesus instituted the Mass at his Last Supper: "He offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the species of bread and wine; and, under the symbols of those same things, He delivered (His own body and blood) to be received by His apostles, whom He then constituted priests of the New Testament; and by those words, Do this in commemoration of me, He commanded them and their successors in the priesthood, to offer (them); even as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught."[8]

The Catholic Church sees the Mass as the most perfect way it has to offer latria (adoration) to God. The Church believes that "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it."[9] It is also Catholic belief that in objective reality, not merely symbolically, the wheaten bread and grape wine are converted into Christ's body and blood, a conversion referred to as transubstantiation, so that the whole Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity, is truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the Eucharist, though the empirical appearances of the bread and wine remain the same.[10][11] In its official declarations, the Catholic Church does not use the term "accidents", associated with Aristotelian philosophy, but instead speaks of the "appearances" (in Latin, species)[12] and, as shown for instance in the Latin text of the Nicene Creed, in which the Son is said to have the same substantia as the Father, the word "substance" was in ecclesiastical use for many centuries before Aristotelian philosophy was adopted in the West.[13]"

The first few sentences are what bug me the most, althought I am not thrilled with the idea of transubstantiaton either.

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Homer
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:28 pm

So do the Catholics consume Jesus' human flesh and blood or is it His resurrected flesh and blood they believe they consume?

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:45 pm

Is the Lutheran view of consubstantiation that much different from the Catholic view of transubstantiation? They also believe they are eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood as well as eating bread and drinking wine.
Under "BELIEFS" you will find:
Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are "truly and substantially present in, with and under the forms" of consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants eat and drink both the elements and the true Body and Blood of Christ himself in the Sacrament of the Eucharist whether they are believers or unbelievers. The Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence is also known as the sacramental union. This theology was first formally and publicly confessed in the Wittenberg Concord. It has also been called "consubstantiation" but most Lutheran theologians reject the use of this term as it creates confusion with an earlier doctrine of the same name. Some Lutherans do believe in consubstantiation. Lutherans use the term "in, with and under the forms of consecrated bread and wine" and "sacramental union" to distinguish their understanding of the Eucharist from those of the Reformed and other traditions.
Also some Anglicans believe in transubstantiation in the same sense that Catholics do.

Why do so many protestants focus on Catholic errors, and ignore the same errors within Protestantism?
Paidion

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TK
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:19 pm

I can take care of that- I disagree with Lutherans and Anglicans too as far as transubstantiation or consubstantiation goes.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:24 pm

I meant to add that the "hellishness" of the mass is the idea of the repeated sacrifice on Calvary. I thought He died once for all (Rom 6:10). Of course I don't think anything of the sort is really happening at the mass; but that fact that millions believe this is pretty morbid.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:46 pm

TK wrote:I meant to add that the "hellishness" of the mass is the idea of the repeated sacrifice on Calvary. I thought He died once for all (Rom 6:10). Of course I don't think anything of the sort is really happening at the mass; but that fact that millions believe this is pretty morbid.
I think you are mistaken about Catholic doctrine on this point. Here is a direct quote from a Catholic tract entitled "The Institution of the Mass" from "Catholic Answers":
The Catholic Church specifically says Christ does not die again—his death is once for all. It would be something else if the Church were to claim he does die again, but it doesn’t make that claim. Through his intercessory ministry in heaven and through the Mass, Jesus continues to offer himself to his Father as a living sacrifice, and he does so in what the Church specifically states is "an unbloody manner"—one that does not involve a new crucifixion.
You can read the entire tract here
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BrotherAlan
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:24 pm

Thanks, Paidion. Though you are not Catholic, that is a good explanation/defense of Catholic belief. Catholics do not "re-sacrifice" Jesus in a bloody manner nor do we THINK we "re-sacrifice" him in a bloody manner. Rather, we recognize that Christ died "once for all", as Scripture says. IN FACT, Catholic belief in the Mass does not derogate from the importance of Calvary but EMPHASIZES its importance by its emphasis on the belief that the Mass is a "re-presentation" of the ONE Sacrifice in Calvary (a "re-presentation" done in Sacramental form, and a re-presentation that is so real that the same Priest-- Christ (acting Sacramentally through the ministerial Catholic priest)-- is offering the same Victim (Christ, Sacramentally and substantially present in the Eucharist)-- but this time so doing in an unbloody manner, as Trent and all Catholic Tradition state). It is kind of like this...one's wedding day is usually seen as a very special day, no? And, often, it is video-taped, right? Well, sometimes a couple may want to "re-live" their ONE wedding day "Again" by playing back the tapes of that wedding ceremony, right? The very fact of re-playing that tape shows the importance of the ONE wedding day (for, it is so important the couple feels the need to "re-live it", "again for the first time", over-and-over-and-over again). But, of course, the couple does not actually get married again; they just re-live the experience "as if" that is happening again". Well, something LIKE that is happening at the Mass (only much more real). Catholic belief in the importance of Calvary is SO strong that we Catholics feel the need to "re-live" Calvary over-and-over-and-over again (for Calvary is like the wedding day of the Church with Christ); Christ does not die again, but He, through the Priest, and through the Eucharist, presents His Eucharistic Sacrifice-- an unbloody re-presentation of Calvary-- to the Father as if to say, "Father, Remember what I did for My People". It's something like that...

In Christ, Our Eternal Priest and Eucharistic Lord,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:10 pm

Thank you for your response, BrotherAlan. Though I am not Catholic, I do consider myself catholic—that is, that I belong to the only universal Church that Christ founded. This unique Church gradually changed and developed into the Catholic Church which, in A.D. 1054 divided into two branches: the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, each of which considers itself to be a continuation of the only True Church.

In any case, I hate to see any church body misrepresented. It is usually people who oppose a particular church who hold false opinions about its beliefs and/or practices.

I am not a Protestant, and I consider that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church have not departed as far from the Church of the first three centuries as have the many varieties of Protestant Churches. I also think the Roman Church has departed somewhat farther than the Orthodox. (I don't mean to be offensive by this statement—only telling it as I see it).
Paidion

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:57 pm

Thanks, Paidion, for the response. Obviously, this could lead us into a whole new ecclesiological discussion on the nature of the Church of Christ, etc., but I won't go there for now (perhaps later, though).

I would like to elaborate on the defense of Catholic practice and doctrine against the oft-heard accusation that Catholicism endorses "Mariolotry" (the worship of Mary). Or, rather, I would like to repeat some of the defenses of the true Catholic practice and doctrine concerning Mary, the Mother of the Lord (defenses which I have already given elsewhere in another thread on the Biblical support for devotion to Mary somewhere else on this forum). The thing about Mary is this: She is the Mother of Christ, and Christ is God (and, therefore, she can properly be called, the Mother of God, for her son is God). This being the case--- and if we really let this astounding truth of our Holy Faith sink in (i.e., that Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother)-- then all we need to ask ourselves is what sort of honor do we NOT owe to this glorious woman? True, it goes without saying (and it really DOES go without saying among Catholic circles), that she herself is not the Almighty; she is a mere creature. She is not the first cause of all things; God is-- God is the cause of all things, including her. So, she's not God. I make this clarification only because some seem to think that Catholics, for some odd reason, forget this; we do not. We're well aware of it. Indeed, we're well aware of it precisely because of the devotion we have to her-- for, the devotion we have to her is a devotion that is offered to the greatest of God's CREATURES. Mary is loved and honored so highly by Catholics precisely because SHE, a mere creature, gave birth to her GOD (a son who, though having a created human nature, is, in His Person, not a creature, but, rather, is the Creator of all, even His very mother!) This fact of the INcarnation: That Christ is God, and Mary is not God, but she became the Mother of Her God, is mind-boggling; and, the minute we even begin to begin to appreciate this fact we begin to have our minds blown away with astonishment and our hearts carried away with love and joy and all things holy. Christ is God, and Mary is his mother....WOW. Think about that for a second...or for an eternity (for, it'll take an eternity to TRULY appreciate it...and, even then, I don't think we'll fully appreciate it).

Plus, devotion to Mary is part-and-parcel of proper respect for womankind, for Mary is the highest honor of womankind. To honor and respect Mary is to honor and respect women; to honor and respect women is to honor and respect the greatest of women, namely, Mary. Women often get shortchanged in the honor that is due to them; this is seen in no more obvious way than in seeing many FAIL to give the due honor, respect, and love that is owed to the greatest of women, the glorious Mother of God, Mary. Amen...

In Christ, the Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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TK
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:05 pm

Alan-

What about the idea that Mary was born w/o original sin (Immaculate conception?) and that she was sinless during her lifetime? I have heard this is a doctrine held by Catholics but perhaps not. I also think there is a belief that she was taken up to heaven bodily (the Assumption, I believe).

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