‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to Unite

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Paidion
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:26 pm

Agreed Paidion-

But can a true disciple of Christ continue in the RCC with its Maryolatry and other abominations? To me it is more than a denominational difference, because it is highly questionable whether the RCC is even a Christian denomination.
Hi TK,
Yes, a true disciple of Christ can continue in the RCC. I happen to have a friend who does. He doesn't worship Mary. Indeed, he got baptized (immersed) in a summer camp of the PAOC. I asked him if he wouldn't get in trouble with his church by doing that. But he wasn't worried about it at all.

When I was about 30, I used to ride my motorcycle to a special meeting of RC brothers and sisters in the basement of the RC church! It was one of the deepest fellowships I have ever experienced. They embraced each other (and me) and shared deeply their love of Jesus. Jesus was the focal point of the meetings. They sang songs of praise to Him. The local priest at the time was right with them in their worship. To my surprise, I heard him ask the group one time, "Can I hold mass on that Sunday?" I couldn't understand why a priest would ask his people for permission to hold mass. However, I heard that one of the "regular" Catholics had said,"I wouldn't go to that basement meeting for anything you could offer me!"

Interestingly, later on the group broke up. All joined various fundamentalist churches except just one brother and his wife. He is the one I mentioned who got immersed by the PAOC church. That brother is still with the RC church to this day.
I guess what I am saying is that it is highly questionable that a true Christian can practice RC, including participating in the hellish Mass, any more than a true Christian can practice Mormonism or Jehovah Witnessism. If they can, what was the Reformation all about?
What's hellish about the Mass? And by the way, my Christian step-daughter is with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and my Christian sister-in-law (before she died) was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:48 pm

Parable of the Iron Bedstead

In the days of Abecedarian Popes it was decreed that a good christian just measured three feet, and for the peace and happiness of the church it was ordained that an iron bedstead, with a wheel at one end and a knife at the other, should be placed at the threshold of the church, on which the christians should all be laid. This bedstead was just three feet in the casement on the exactest French scales. Every christian, in those days, was laid on this bedstead; if less than the standard, the wheel and a rope was applied to him to stretch him to it; if he was too tall, the knife was applied to his extremities. In this way they kept the good christians, for nearly a thousand years, all of one stature. Those to whom the knife or the wheel were applied either died in the preparation, or were brought to the saving standard.


One sturdy fellow, called Martin Luther, was born in those days, who grew to the enormous height of four feet: he of course feared the bedstead and the knife, and kept off at a considerable distance deliberating how he might escape. At length he proclaimed that there was a great mistake committed by his ancestors in fixing upon three feet as the proper standard of the stature of a good christian. He made proselytes to his opinions; for many who had been tried on the three-foot bedstead, who were actually four feet, had found a way of contracting themselves to the popular standard. These began to stretch themselves to their natural stature, and Luther had, in a few years, an iron bedstead four feet long, fashioned and fixed in his churches, with the usual appendages. The wheel and the knife soon found something to do in Luther's church; and it became as irksome to flesh and blood to be stretched by a wheel and rope to four feet, or to be cut down to that stature, as it was to be forced either up or down to the good and sacred three-foot stature. Moreover, men grew much larger after Luther's time than before, and a considerable proportion of them advanced above his perfect man; insomuch that John Calvin found it expedient to order his iron bedstead to be made six inches longer, with the usual regulating appendages. The next generation found even Calvin's measure as unaccommodating as Luther's; and the Independents, in their greater wisdom and humanity fixed their perfect christian at the enormous stature of five feet. The Baptists at this time began to think of constructing an iron bedstead to be in fashion with their neighbors, but kindly made it six inches longer than the Congregationalists, and dispensed with the knife, thinking that there was likely to be more need for two wheels than one knife, which they accordingly affixed to their apparatus. It was always found, that in the same proportion as the standard was lengthened, christians grew; and now the bedstead is actually proved to be at least six inches too short. It is now expected that six inches will be humanely added; but this will only be following up an evil precedent; for experience has proved, that as soon as the iron bedstead is lengthened, the people will grow apace, and it will be found too short even when extended to six feet. Why not, then, dispense with this piece of popish furniture in the church, and allow christians of every stature to meet at the same fireside and eat at the same table?--The parable is just, and the interpretation thereof easy and sure.

Every attempt at reformation since the rude but masculine efforts of Luther, has been based upon the same principles. He did not like the popish superstructure, notwithstanding he built upon the same foundation. So did all his successors. They all divided the New Testament into two chapters. The title of the one was, the essentials--and the title of the other was the non-essentials. In one party the one chapter, and in another party, the other, is much the larger. Still the volume comprizes but two chapters, however disproportioned they may be. Many efforts have been made to reduce the chapter of Essentials into narrower limits; but as it is reduced the other is enlarged, and the old division is kept up. The book called The Creed contains all the essentials; and as they are there correctly arranged and soundly digested, this book is more the subject of controversy than the Testament, which has the essentials and the non-essentials all jumbled together.

Suppose, then, that a number of churches should agree to throw aside the iron bedstead, and take the book in one chapter, and call it their Creed and Book of Discipline. What then? Oh! says Puritanus, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, &c. &c. do this. Stop, my friend, not one of them dare trust themselves upon this bottom; they all have their creeds and disciplines to keep them from sinking. What then if an experiment should be made, and a fair trial of the adequacy of the Divine Book should be given; and whenever it fails of the promised end, let any other device be tried. But among all the experiments of this age and country, it is nowhere recorded that such a trial has been made and failed. I am aware of all that can be said on the other side, and still I assert that no such an experiment and result are on record. And, moreover, I do not think it is likely that it shall ever be proved by actual experiment that the New Testament, without a creed, is insufficient to preserve the unity, peace, and purity of anyone congregation, or of those of any given district. But above all, let us have no more iron bedsteads, with or without wheels or knives.

A. Campbell

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jasonmodar
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by jasonmodar » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:11 pm

Hey Paidion,

You said-
Paidion wrote:
And by the way, my Christian step-daughter is with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and my Christian sister-in-law (before she died) was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I have a follow up question to this. I can't think of a better way to phrase it so I apologize if it comes off as combative. Why does your step-daughter and why did your sister-in-law stay with those organizations when LDS and JW's have a vastly different understanding of who Jesus is (Different from Evangelicals for clarity's sake)? I would venture a guess it had to do with fellowship/community but I'm less interested in my own assumptions and most interested in your answer.

BTW I have no idea when you sister-in-law passed away but it would be very remiss of me to not offer my condolences.

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Paidion
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:02 am

Hi Jason, you wrote:I have a follow up question to this. I can't think of a better way to phrase it so I apologize if it comes off as combative.


It didn't occur to me that it might seem combative. I see no evidence of that whatever.
Why does your step-daughter and why did your sister-in-law stay with those organizations when LDS and JW's have a vastly different understanding of who Jesus is (Different from Evangelicals for clarity's sake)?
Would you explain that "different understanding of who Jesus is" as you see it? Are you referring in part to the JW view that Jesus in his pre-incarnate state was Michael, the highest archangel? The LDSs on the other hand, seem to believe in some sort of Trinity, although some consider it to be Tritheism.
I would venture a guess it had to do with fellowship/community...
I think that is precisely the case with my stepdaughter. She doesn't seem to believe all of the Mormon teachings and maybe their practices, too.

However, my sister-in-law, who was converted in a "regular" evangelical group (or perhaps it was a "Jesus People" group) later joined the JW organization. She was completely convinced by their teachings. Prior to her death, she required a blood transfusion, but she refused to accept it, based on the JW interpretation of "abstaining from blood" (Acts 15:20,29;21:25).

Would you say (and TK, would you say) that having become a convinced JW and a practising JW, she thereby ceased being a true Christian?
Paidion

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by crgfstr1 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:30 am

Thanks Homer. I like "Parable of the Iron Bedstead" and hadn't heard it before.

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jasonmodar
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by jasonmodar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:04 am

Would you explain that "different understanding of who Jesus is" as you see it? Are you referring in part to the JW view that Jesus in his pre-incarnate state was Michael, the highest archangel? The LDSs on the other hand, seem to believe in some sort of Trinity, although some consider it to be Tritheism.
Yes Paidion, that's what I was referring to. For JW's I could also add their view that Jesus is not God (I suppose they might clarify and say Jesus isn't Jehovah since Jehovah is One).
Would you say (and TK, would you say) that having become a convinced JW and a practising JW, she thereby ceased being a true Christian?
A couple of years ago I'd have said without much hesitation she did cease being a true Christian and I would have backed that up by regurgitating something about Dr Walter Martin, cults and a wrong belief about Jesus. I don't mean to demean any of that but my point is that I never really looked into JW's for myself and just simply accepted what I was taught by others.

Now I'd say that I cannot authoritatively speak to that question. I'm not even close to qualified to make a judgment like that. Without knowing anything about the fruit she produced in her life (fruit being a reliable indicator of one's heart) I couldn't really begin to postulate about her being a genuine follower of Jesus. JW's have some goofy and arguably heretical views about Christ but a perfect understanding of Jesus' character isn't what's required to be his follower. I'd say that being willing to follow Christ no matter the cost (Matt 16:24; 19:29) is a good starting point.

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TK
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:50 am

I'd say that being willing to follow Christ no matter the cost (Matt 16:24; 19:29) is a good starting point.
Agreed, but does it matter which Christ one is talking about?

If we can worship and follow just any old Jesus, the path is broad indeed, despite what scripture says.

Hanging out on this forum over the years has definitely "liberalized"my views somewhat on various topics. Not sure that I am liberalized enough to accept that doctrine is a non-issue- particularly the doctrine of who Jesus is and what he did, and how a person is "saved."

It appears that it is being suggested here that Mormons and JW's and RC's will be just fine if we leave them alone. Balderdash!- IMO of course.

TK

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:37 pm

TK wrote:
But can a true disciple of Christ continue in the RCC with its Maryolatry and other abominations? To me it is more than a denominational difference, because it is highly questionable whether the RCC is even a Christian denomination.

I guess what I am saying is that it is highly questionable that a true Christian can practice RC, including participating in the hellish Mass, any more than a true Christian can practice Mormonism or Jehovah Witnessism. If they can, what was the Reformation all about?
First, in response to the claim, "Can a true disciple of Christ continue in the RCC with its Maryolatry and other abominations?"
1.) Roman Catholicism does not endorse worshiping Mary as God; to the contrary, worshiping any other than the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God is condemned as blasphemy.

Second, in response to, "it is highly questionable whether the RCC is even a Christian denomination".
2.) In one sense, there's something (ironically) true about this in that the Roman Catholic Church is not a DENOMINATION but, rather, is simply the (one) Church that Jesus Christ, the God-Man, founded as His Bride; of this Church, this same God-Man, He Who can not be mistaken nor lie, stated, "The gates of hell shall not prevail against her." And, so, yes, the Roman Catholic Church is NOT a "denomination"; it's simply the Church of Christ, the True Church of Christ (whereas, those Christian communities that broke away from the unity of this Church are termed, "denominations"). To the charge, however, that the Catholic Church is not Christian, it must simply be stated that the Catholic Church has not, and, according to Our Lord's promises, can not, fall away from the true Christian Faith, that Faith which proclaims that there is one God in Three Divine Persons-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- and that the Son of the Eternal Father became Man, born of the Virgin Mary, and suffered and died for our sins to save us from sin and hell. This is the Christian Faith, in a nutshell, the Faith that the Catholic Church, since her being founded by Christ, and to this very day, has proclaimed, as she will continue to proclaim it until the Lord, Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

Thirdly, in response to, "I guess what I am saying is that it is highly questionable that a true Christian can practice RC, including participating in the hellish Mass..."
3.) The First Mass was offered by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, when, on the night before He was betrayed, He took bread, broke it, and gave it to His disciples saying, "Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this IS my Body, which will be given up for you." In a similar way, when Supper was ended, He took the chalice and, once more, giving thanks, He gave it to His disciples, saying, "Take this all of you and drink from it, for this IS the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins." And, then, following those solemn words, words by which the Lord had given Himself to His disciples as the Bread of Life (fulfilling His promise, recorded in John 6, to give to His disciples that Bread from Heaven, that Bread of Life, which IS His flesh, given for the life of the world), the Lord gave the Apostles the solemn command, "Do THIS"-- i.e., do what I just did (i.e., the Mass)-- "in remembrance of me." So the Mass is not only not "hellish", but, rather, it is a faithful carrying out of the Lord's command to do what He did at the Last Supper. And, at the Last Supper, the Lord offered Mass (thus, considering that the Author of the Mass is Christ, and that the carrying out of the Mass is done in fidelity to Christ, and that the nature of the Mass is that which is most sacred, to call the Mass, "hellish", is, objectively speaking, blasphemy).

In Jesus Christ, the Eternal Priest and King of the Universe,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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TK
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:36 pm

Well, when I say the Catholic mass is hellish I am not talking about the mere taking of communion, or the Lord's Supper. Nothing hellish at all about that.

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Paidion
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:48 pm

Then what ARE you saying? That the belief that the bread and wine actually become Christ's flesh and blood is the hellish thing?
Paidion

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