‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to Unite

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Paidion
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:41 pm

Hi BrotherAlan, you wrote:The thing about Mary is this: She is the Mother of Christ, and Christ is God (and, therefore, she can properly be called, the Mother of God, for her son is God).
To call her "The Mother of God" makes some think that Catholics are saying she is the mother of God the Father. The expression "Mother of God" does suggest that. The early Catholics actually didn't call her "The mother of God"; they called her "the God bearer." If Catholics kept the same terminology today, non-Catholics would have an easier time accepting it. For other Christians also hold that Mary bore the divine Son of God.

Also, if Mary was sinless and "the Mother of God" why did Jesus address her as "Woman"? Not even as "Mother" but as "Woman." Couldn't He have used a more respectful form of address? Would a Catholic ever refer to Mary merely as "Woman"?

Furthermore, did Jesus ever even recognize Mary as His mother? Notice his response when someone told him that his mother and brothers were standing outside, wishing to speak with Him:

While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:46-50)



Yes, TK, Catholics do hold that Mary was without sin during her life time, and I think also born without original sin. I think their insistence that she had no other children is somehow related to that, although why they think sinlessness includes sexlessness, I have no idea. But then the idea that a priest is holier if he doesn't marry fits in with this idea (the Eastern Orthodox Church permits their priests to marry).

But how far back do we go? If Mary was born without sinful tendencies, and committed no sin during her life, how about Mary's mother? Did she live a sinless life also? Hmmm... I guess not since she had to have sex in order to bear Mary.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:23 pm

Good points Paidion.

Regardless of Alan's indications to the contrary, many Catholics DO worship and idolize Mary. I am not saying that every Catholic does, but a great many do.

I have also been suspicious that the Catholic 10 Commandments omit #2 pertaining to graven images and instead make 9 and 10 two separate commandments regarding coveting. I have wondered if this is because of all the graven images in Catholic churches. To be fair, Lutherans do the same thing I believe.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:44 pm

Hi TK, you wrote:Regardless of Alan's indications to the contrary, many Catholics DO worship and idolize Mary. I am not saying that every Catholic does, but a great many do.
I had a devout Catholic friend and true Christian, who affirmed that he DID NOT worship Mary. Also, he fellow-shipped with non-Catholics as well. One summer, he went to a Pentecostal summer camp, and was baptized (immersed) there. I got worried. Medieval Catholics put people to death for baptizing adults (thereby not recognizing their "baptism" as infants). So I asked him if he did not think he'd run into trouble with his church for being baptized as an adult. But he wasn't at all worried about it, and so maybe modern Catholics are not so strict about such things. Perhaps Brother Alan could enlighten us on that.
I have also been suspicious that the Catholic 10 Commandments omit #2 pertaining to graven images and instead make 9 and 10 two separate commandments regarding coveting. I have wondered if this is because of all the graven images in Catholic churches. To be fair, Lutherans do the same thing I believe.
I'd like you to tell me your source concerning "The Catholic 10 Commandments." I've never heard of such a thing. Please compare the ESV translation of the verse concerning making images with the 1899 Douay (Catholic) translation:

(ESV) “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

(Douay) Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.


So you can see that commandment 2 has not been omitted. Catholics do not regard their images as something to be worshipped. Rather they regard them as reminders of the realities that they represent. Consider photos you might have of your relatives. Do you worship those pictures? Or do you keep them to remind you of the relatives? I think it is important to become more knowledgeable concerning Catholic beliefs and practices, so that we do not quickly accept the accusations of their enemies.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Jason » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:37 am

I'm not Catholic doctrinally, but I do attend a Catholic church now and thought I share some of the reasons for it. I "got saved" in a non-denomination mega church in my early twenties. And for 15 years, that's all I knew. We looked down on Catholics for adopting the traditions of men, but along the way, I came to realize that we had adopted just as many traditions and pretended they were biblical. I once thought liturgical settings were void of the Spirit because, in my church, we worshiped with our hands in the air and people wept and sang along with loud, emotional music. Then I got to know these "spirit-filled" Christians and saw into their private lives. Let me just say, without condemning them, that it was not impressive.

Maybe it's just me getting older or the fact that I'm weary of loud music, pep talk sermons, and awkward, forced social gatherings that I found myself craving stillness and liturgy on occasion. The Catholic mass is something I've come to truly appreciate. It's not based around a sermon or lively music, but on scripture readings from lay people, Jesus, lots of silent prayer and contemplation, and quiet but reflective hymns lead by musicians you can't even see (they're always hidden). I actually leave mass feeling energized.

Another reason I prefer this Catholic parish is their wise use of money. We have a large building with lots of classrooms, and they are full during the week. None of the protestant churches I previously fellowshipped with used their facility in a way that I felt justified the expense. We also feed and clothe the homeless and give them a place to sleep in the colder months. I do think my fellow Catholics cling to some bad traditions, but that was also my experience in Protestantism. It seems Jesus is more revered and honored among my parish, and the scriptures are read far more often than in those mega church experiences I've had. I even feel a sense of irony typing all of this out, but I can't deny that it's the truth.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:14 pm

Greetings,

First, yes, it is a Catholic (infallible) dogma that Mary was Immaculately Conceived (preserved free from the stain of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception), and she was also assumed, body and soul, into heaven at the end of her earthly life. The idea behind this Immaculate Conception—whose feastday we actually celebrated yesterday in the Catholic Church (so, this discussion is good timing!)—is that God deigned to create a fit dwelling for His Divine Son and so He, in His Providence, deigned to preserve the Virgin free from all sin (for, a woman who had been touched by sin would not be such a fit dwelling for the All-Holy Incarnate God); and so God, foreseeing the merits of Christ on the Cross, applied those merits to her ahead of time at her conception, applying them to her in such a way so as to preserve her clean from all sin, including Original Sin (which means that she was filled with God’s grace at the time of her conception, whereas the rest of us sinners do not receive God’s grace until later, sometime after we are born). So, while Mary’s Immaculate Conception happened before the Cross in time, nevertheless, the Cross- Christ—is the cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. So, Christ is both the Final Cause and the Agent Cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception: He is the Final Cause/Purpose because the reason why God chose to create Mary Immaculate was because she was chosen to be the Mother of Christ, He Who is God (and, so, Her Divine Motherhood, Her Motherhood to Christ, is the cause of her being Immaculate); Christ is the Agent/Acting Cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception insofar as He, on the Cross, merited for Mary the graces that she needed to receive in order to be preserved from all sin, including Original (God, foreseeing the future Sacrifice of Her Son, granted her this special, but fitting privilege, by applying the graces that Christ won for Mary on the Cross to Her at Her own conception). So it is that this privilege of Mary, as is true of all her privileges, is essentially connected to her close (and maternal) relationship to Christ.

From the fact that Mary was conceived without sin, it follows that she would be assumed, body and soul, into heaven; for, she, being sinless, would not be allowed to experience corruption, as is written in the psalms (16), “You will not suffer your holy one to undergo corruption.” That applies, first, to Christ, for He is the source of Holiness; but, it also applies to that one who, in Christ, is perfectly holy, and has never had any contact with sin (thus, making her truly holy, even if in subordination to Christ as they participate in Christ’s holiness), i.e., Mary. And, so, Mary would not undergo corruption but would be assumed into heaven (and this should not surprise us, considering that the Scriptures speak of other, similar events for lesser Saints, eg., the taking up of Enoch and Elijah in the O.T., the raising of the saints from graves after Christ’s Resurrection, as recorded by St. Matthew, see Mt. 27:52).

Some other miscellaneous points...

1.) Mary is called, “Woman”, in the Gospel to refer to the fact that she is the New Eve. The Scriptures clearly present Mary as the New Eve, to complement Christ, the New Adam, in the generation of the human family in the supernatural order (even as the first Adam and Eve complemented each other in the generation of the human family in the natural order).

2.) Jesus was not “dissing” Mary when he made his statement about his true family being those who do the will of God and keep it. For one thing, He would never show disrespect to Mary, as it contradicts the 4th Commandment. Secondly, Mary did the will of God more faithfully than any else (she is called “full of grace”, the one who found so much favor with God that she was chosen to be the Mother of God’s Son); so, implied in Christ’s words is that, yes, she is His Mother by nature, she is even more intimately united to Him by grace. And, the fact is, that Christ was simply tying to move people beyond just the natural familial bond to the supernatural family of the Church which He was establishing (and which His own blessed Mother was cooperating in building in a very important way by giving birth to Him, raising Him, being present at the Cross, at Pentecost, etc., etc., etc.) And, really, Christ said this, and some think this means he was ignoring his Mom or something, or didn’t love or, or whatever; fact is that I, for one, love my mother very much, and I would have no problem at all saying these words that Christ said. Would any of you? Would any of you have a problem saying these words of Christ? I hope not. But, would that mean you don’t like your Mom or didn’t think she’s important to you?! Again, I REALLY hope not!! So, this is a red herring argument, really. No offense, but it is.

3.) With respect to the charge that ‘some’ Catholics worship Mary (but not all); a claim that appears to be a somewhat mitigated charge from the previous statement (which seemed to be more of a “blanket” statement covering all Catholics). I’m sorry, but I will not grant even this...no, I shall not grant this claim AT ALL!
Listen, I am 40 years old and have been a Catholic all my life; I work in Catholic ministry and have met thousands and thousands and thousands of Catholics over my life. And, well, let me tell you, that I have not met ONE, not even ONE Catholic who “worships” Mary (in the sense that they worship her as God, as if she were the Almighty Ruler or Creator of the Universe, or even the Savior of the world, on a par with Christ). I have not met even ONE! And, of the thousands and thousands of Catholics I have met, I am not aware of any of these who has encountered another Catholic who worships Mary in this way, not one. And, so, what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that, I’m sorry, but such a Catholic—a Catholic who actually thinks Mary is God and worships her as such, or thinks that Mary is equal to Christ and worships her with equal honor—such a Catholic simply does NOT exist! So, do “some Catholics” worship Mary?! The question is, actually, laughable, quite laughable, to one who has even a little bit more than superficial knowledge and authentic experience of the Holy Catholic Faith.

Those who make this claim that Catholics “worship” Mary or that “some Catholics” worship Mary are, I’m sorry, completely off-base, all wrong! And, what is worse, it is not only all wrong, it is actually *extremely* offensive!

And, do you know why it is offensive? I’ll tell you why. It is because those who make these (outlandish) claims are, objectively speaking, committing the sin which Christ, Our Lord, God, and Savior, so strongly condemned—namely, the sin to “judge not”, to not even try to peer into the secret intentions of another’s heart and determine, from what you see, what is going on in that person’s heart and will (and I stress that they are OBJECTIVLEY speaking doing this, for, subjectively-speaking, I can not judge their hearts, so can not accuse them of sinning in their hearts; but, in their very actions and words, they are behaving rashly and unfairly). To do so rashly—and, it is almost always rash—is a grave sin (objectively speaking), my friends; I’m sorry, but it is (at least when it leads one to rashly judge another person over a serious matter, such as IDOLATRY, which many Protestants, from all appearances, seem to have NO scruples about in accusing Catholics of this horrible sin!) I have to question whether those who make this sort of judgment on others, i.e., accusing “some Catholics” of IDOLATRY (towards Mary), do they REALIZE how STRONG a claim that is--- and how RASHLY it is being made!? Do those who make such claims have special, almost God-like knowledge, into the secret intentions of the hearts of these Catholics? Have they ASKED these pious Catholics why they are honoring Mary in the external way they do, eg., praying her Rosary, praying other devotions to her, honoring her beautiful images and statues, etc.? Have these persons, who seem to know what is going on in the hearts of others (when, the fact is, it is difficult to know exactly what is going on in one’s own heart, as St. Paul says, “I do not even judge myself,”), have they had honest and open discussions with these Catholics to learn exactly what they believe about Jesus and Mary, and why they act and pray as they do based on their beliefs??

If those who accuse Catholics of “Maryolotry” have honestly inquired with Catholics as to the motives of their devotions to the Mary, I’d like to know if they have found even one Catholic who says, “Yea, you know, yea, I think Mary is God and so I worship her as God!” I’d like to know where this Catholic is and put him/her in a museum, because, as far as I know, he/she does not exist (and, so, to find such a Catholic would be quite a find and such a one ought to be displayed to the public).
But, then, when a Catholic comes forward – as I have on this forum, many times-- and explains that, “No, we do not worship Mary, we honor her with the honor that is due to a Woman Who gave birth to GOD...you know, we just figure that, yea, giving birth to GOD is, well, a pretty big deal and so we just thought we would show this Good Woman some honor, you know? And, considering that she gave birth to GOD (to GOD!), she is a person with a honor that is so high that it is hard to exaggerate, she deserves to be SHOWN a WHOLE lot of honor, so much honor it would be at least extremely difficult to show her too much external honor.”

The fact is that Catholic doctrine is very clear on this point (as it is on many points): God is a Trinity, Father, Son, an Spirit; and the Son became Man. Only this God, the Trinity, can be worshipped as God; to worship any other, including Mary, as God (to believe that she is the Creator of the world or to give her praise her internally as one’s ultimate end over and above God, or anything like that that would equate her or put her above God, is idolatry; simple). That’s Catholic doctrine, and every Catholic knows it. We Catholics really don’t need any clarifications on this; it’s quite clear to us from the time we learn how to walk (for those who are “cradle Catholics” anyways) who is God, and who is not; who needs to be worshipped as God, and who ought to be not worshipped as God, but honored with another kind of honor (a high honor, sure, but nothing like the infinite honor given to God in worshipping Him).

But, though Mary does not deserve the worship that is due to God since she is not God...still, my friends, this Woman, Mary, my goodness, She gave birth to Our GOD, for crying out loud; I mean, has that FACT REALLY sunk in with us? Do we REALLY appreciate that Mary’s Son is GOD!!

I say this because, well, based on the fear (a scrupulous fear, I do believe) often revealed in the objections leveled against Catholics about our honoring Mary “too much”, I actually have reason to wonder whether or not the DIVINITY of JESUS, Mary’s Son, is being properly appreciated by those who think Catholics honor Mary too much. I say this simply because the reason why we Catholics honor this Woman so much because her Son—not she herself, but her SON, is God!

I mean, we as Catholics, believe that—don’t ALL Christians believe that? If they do, what problem do they have with giving honor, very, very, very great honor to this humble girl from Nazareth). Really, to be completely honest, if I am asked by others whether or not Catholics honor this Virgin of Nazareth too much, my honest response is, “WOULD that we honored her too much! We certainly do not honor her enough (even as we do not glorify her divine Son enough...and this largely because we don’t honor His Mother enough—to honor His Mother IS to honor Jesus, for whatever honor she receives is given to her only in virtue of the fact that she is Jesus’ Mother).” Goodness, the girl from Nazareth gives us our God, the God Who Created us and the whole universe and the God Who Saved us by the Cross, and complaints are thrown around about Catholics giving her too much honor. Well, I’m sorry, but, just as we Catholics won’t ever “get over” the fact that God became Man (God became Man, people! Can you believe it?!), so, too, we Catholics will never, ever, ever get over the fact that this God-Man came to us through a humble Virgin from a humble town called Nazareth, betrothed to a humble carpenter named Joseph, and that the Virgin Mary is this God-Man’s Mommy! I hate to say it, but, the fact is that all this (undue, scrupulous) concern over the kind and degree of honor that is being given to Mary by Catholics is completely missing the point: the point being this...Jesus Christ is GOD, and Mary is His Mom. Simple And, so, my friends, my fellow believers in Christ, out of love for Christ, the God-Man, give honor, LOTS of honor to HER for being God’s Mom. Do we not have a heart for God’s Mommy? If we don’t have a heart for HER, then for whom do we have a heart??? (If one can't love a Mother-- especially the most perfect Mother, Mary-- then whom CAN one love!?)

And, in the meantime, those who have in the past (ridiculously!) accused Catholics of "Maryolotry" need to stop accusing Catholics of Maryolotry when you see external actions being made but don’t know the secrets of the hearts. “Man sees the appearance, but the Lord looks into the heart...Do no judge by appearance, but judge with just judgment.” The Church is very clear on what Catholics are and are not to believe and practice—and one thing the Church is clear on is that God alone, the Father, Son, and Spirit, is to be worshipped as God; no others, not even Mary, not even any angels, deserve that sort of worship; to do so would be the grave sin of idolatry. But, Mary, the angels, and the Saints, still deserve special, very special honor, and THAT is what we give them. So, please, for the love of God and love of neighbor (for we are your neighbor), do not, I repeat, do NOT accuse us of the abominable sin of idolatry when you can not see into our hearts and we have stated to you that, in our hearts, we do not do that (indeed, no offense, but to us Catholics, the thought of us “worshipping Mary as God” to us is such a ridiculous/crazy idea that it is literally laughable; we literally laugh when we hear such accusations thrown out about us because it is just so off-base as to actually be comical). So, going forward, I ask any and all who engage in this practice of accusing Catholics of “Maryolotry” to stop doing so because, in doing so, you are actually engaging in the (rash) judgment of the secret thoughts and intentions of Catholics, and you are judging that those thoughts and intentions are actually DIFFERENT from the stated intentions of those doing the act (thus, also accusing Catholics either of lying or for some other reason being wrong about their actual intentions for their Marian devotions); these Catholics say, “We are doing it because we love Mary, because she is the beautiful Mother who gave us GOD, because Jesus, Her Son, is God!”, while you say, “NO, that is NOT why you are doing it—you’re doing it because you think Mary is equal to God; you are engaging in idolatry (but just can’t see it for yourselves—though being but human beings and not God, we can see into your hearts’ intentions better than you can see into your own—or you are lying).” Do we not see the sin against charity (and justice) here? So, out of fairness to us as Catholics, and for the good of your own soul (so that Christ may not, on the last day, rebuke you as He rebuked the Pharisees for “condemning the guiltless”), take our word for it: We Catholics worship the one God-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- and no other Persons do we honor as God except these Three Diving Persons (not even the Mother of Jesus). But, we do, most certainly, honor her with a great honor for she gave birth to Our God (and, we are also not confused as to which Divine Person to whom She gave birth—it’s very clear here that by Mary being the “Mother of God” we are, of course, referring to God the Son, and not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit; again, I’ve never met anyone who is truly confused as to which Person of the Trinity is meant when we say Mary is the “Mother of God”; anyone with even a little knowledge of the Gospel knows she gave birth to God the Son, not God the Father). To this God, Jesus Christ, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, belongs all power and glory, now and forever.

In Christ, the Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan

P.S.
Jason, the Catholic religion is a beautiful religion and the Catholic Mass is the most perfect form of worship one can offer to God, the Trinity, in this world. This is because these acts of worship are born out of the Catholic Church, which is the Church founded by the God-Man, Jesus Christ. I hope and pray you continue to go to Mass and officially enter the Catholic Church someday soon. God bless...
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:54 pm

Alan- if I address my prayer to someone other than God, what am I doing? Are you saying that when a catholic prays "Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" they are not actually praying to Mary? If they are, why in the world would they do that?

Paidion, in regard to the 10 commandments- I am not saying the catholic bible removes the verse regarding graven images.

But when they are listed, in a catholic church- or even on the internet, the commandment regarding no graven images is omitted from the list, and instead have two separate commandments regarding coveting (dont covet your neighbors house, dont covet your neighbor's wife).

From "Gotquestions.org": Mariolatry holds Jesus’ mother up as an object of trust, veneration, and deification. There are biblical warnings against worshiping anyone other than God. Mary was a natural woman. She has no power to connect us to God, heal us, or hear our prayers. Do the Catholic and Orthodox Churches promote Mariology? They deny they do; however, the difference between “adoration” and “highest veneration” is difficult to see. Elevating Mary with titles such as Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, Cause of Our Salvation, Most Holy Mother of God, Our Immaculate Lady, and Queen of Heaven cannot help but foster Mariolatry. Singing hymns to Mary, praying to her, kissing her picture, parading her image through the streets, and bowing down before her statue reflect a degree of reverence that certainly imitates idolatry and might as well be called Mariolatry.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by TK » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:57 pm

Jason-

I wanted to say that your post spoke to me on several levels. You have described the type of church I would like to find- of course I would prefer that it be protestant.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:27 pm

TK, I think it would be wise to become better informed about the Orthodox Church. Though they believe Mary to have remained a virgin after the birth of Christ, they do not worship her. Here is an excerpt from one of their sites. In case you are wondering about "the Theotokos," it means "the God bearer," a reference to Mary:
Finally, we Orthodox do not "worship" the Virgin Mary. We "venerate" her and show her great honor. Nor have we ever, like the Latins, developed the idea that the Theotokos was born without sin (the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception) or that she is a co-redemptor with Christ (the cult of the Redemtrix in the Latin Church). The consensus of the Church Fathers rejects such ideas, and the Orthodox Church adheres to that consensus. However, we do believe that the Virgin Mary is an image, as St. Maximos the Confessor says, of the Christian goal of becoming Christ-like, of theosis. Just as the Theotokos gave birth to Christ in a bodily way, so we must, St. Maximos tells us, give birth to Christ in an unbodily or spiritual way. In so doing, we imitate her practical spiritual life, including the purity and humility by which she formed her free will into perfect obedience to the Will of God. Of this practical image of the Virgin Mary, one of our readers, Archdeacon Basil Kuretich, D.D., has written some words that bear repeating here. They give us a clear picture of the importance of the model which she presents for every Orthodox believer.
Here is the site from which this quote was drawn:

An Orthodox View of the Virgin Mary
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Homer » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:38 pm

BrotherAlan wrote:
First, yes, it is a Catholic (infallible) dogma that Mary was Immaculately Conceived (preserved free from the stain of Original Sin from the first moment of her conception), and she was also assumed, body and soul, into heaven at the end of her earthly life. The idea behind this Immaculate Conception—whose feastday we actually celebrated yesterday in the Catholic Church (so, this discussion is good timing!)—is that God deigned to create a fit dwelling for His Divine Son and so He, in His Providence, deigned to preserve the Virgin free from all sin (for, a woman who had been touched by sin would not be such a fit dwelling for the All-Holy Incarnate God); and so God, foreseeing the merits of Christ on the Cross, applied those merits to her ahead of time at her conception, applying them to her in such a way so as to preserve her clean from all sin, including Original Sin (which means that she was filled with God’s grace at the time of her conception, whereas the rest of us sinners do not receive God’s grace until later, sometime after we are born). So, while Mary’s Immaculate Conception happened before the Cross in time, nevertheless, the Cross- Christ—is the cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. So, Christ is both the Final Cause and the Agent Cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception: He is the Final Cause/Purpose because the reason why God chose to create Mary Immaculate was because she was chosen to be the Mother of Christ, He Who is God (and, so, Her Divine Motherhood, Her Motherhood to Christ, is the cause of her being Immaculate); Christ is the Agent/Acting Cause of Mary’s Immaculate Conception insofar as He, on the Cross, merited for Mary the graces that she needed to receive in order to be preserved from all sin, including Original (God, foreseeing the future Sacrifice of Her Son, granted her this special, but fitting privilege, by applying the graces that Christ won for Mary on the Cross to Her at Her own conception). So it is that this privilege of Mary, as is true of all her privileges, is essentially connected to her close (and maternal) relationship to Christ.

From the fact that Mary was conceived without sin, it follows that she would be assumed, body and soul, into heaven; for, she, being sinless, would not be allowed to experience corruption, as is written in the psalms (16), “You will not suffer your holy one to undergo corruption.” That applies, first, to Christ, for He is the source of Holiness; but, it also applies to that one who, in Christ, is perfectly holy, and has never had any contact with sin (thus, making her truly holy, even if in subordination to Christ as they participate in Christ’s holiness), i.e., Mary. And, so, Mary would not undergo corruption but would be assumed into heaven (and this should not surprise us, considering that the Scriptures speak of other, similar events for lesser Saints, eg., the taking up of Enoch and Elijah in the O.T., the raising of the saints from graves after Christ’s Resurrection, as recorded by St. Matthew, see Mt. 27:52).
This strikes me as a figment of someone's imagination. Why didn't Jesus and the Apostles mention any of it? Where do we find it in the scriptures? Can it be shown to have been church doctrine, in any form, prior to 225AD or so?

First you need to start with the false doctrine of original sin, i.e. babies born guilty of sin. Please read Ezekiel 18 and note that God demands that idea should cease to be spoken of.

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:13 pm

Homer wrote:First you need to start with the false doctrine of original sin, i.e. babies born guilty of sin.
Homer, I think you will find that few if any proponents of original sin hold that babies are born guilty of sin. Rather they hold that babies are born with a tendency to sin, with a sinful nature, this nature being inherited biologically from our original ancestors—Adam and Eve.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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