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Why did Jesus stop reading?

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Candlepower » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:32 pm

Singalphile wrote:Biblically, a "heresy" (hairesis) is a sect, division, faction, and a "heretic" (hairetikos) is one disposed to such, a schismatic. Debating and disagreement is fine, as far as I know, as long as those involved won't get all heretical (i.e., divisive and factious) about it.


First-century Jews considered Christians to be a sect/heresy (Acts 28:22). Both groups understood that there were huge Scriptural differences between them, which is why Christians were willing to die for the faith, and why some Jews were so intent on accommodating them. The Romans, however, thought the Christians were a merely a Jewish splinter group (sect) that had only minor differences with other Jews. Like a family squabble (Acts 25:19). The Romans were, of course, wrong.

It misses the point to think of heresy as merely a difference of opinion about a minor issue (a family squabble). If that were the case, then every denominational variance would automatically be a heresy. Heresy means much more than that, and the first-century Christians and Jews knew it. The Romans did not. Let's not be Roman in our understanding of heresy.

In terms of Christianity, heresy involves a denial of a clear and essential element of Scriptural truth, and an assertion that a falsehood is, instead, the truth. Paidion holds a heretical view. Not just a sectarian difference of opinion about a secondary or tertiary issue, but an error involving an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.

It is Paidion who has divided himself from orthodoxy, and his labors on this forum promote division among the brethren. His sect (heresy) promotes division (heresy) by persisting in significant Scriptural error (heresy).
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Singalphile » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:02 am

Candlepower wrote:It misses the point to think of heresy as merely a difference of opinion about a minor issue (a family squabble).


I'm afraid it does miss my point by a very great distance, Candlepower. I did not say nor do I think that the Greek word hairesis means "merely a difference of opinion". It is close to the opposite of my point! Rather, based on my studies, hairesis, in the biblical sense, means a division or sect, and a hairetikos is a person who is divisive and sectarian. So, a Christian could have all of the exact same opinions as you do, Candlepower, and still be a "heretic", in the biblical sense, i.e., factious, divisive, sectarian.

Candlepower wrote:In terms of Christianity, heresy involves a denial of a clear and essential element of Scriptural truth, and an assertion that a falsehood is, instead, the truth. ... Not just a sectarian difference of opinion about a secondary or tertiary issue, but an error involving an essential doctrine of the Christian faith.


Your definition - "a denial of a clear and essential element of Scriptural truth" and "an error involving an essential doctrine of the Christian faith" - is indeed the modern, popular definition of "heresy", but I do not think it is the biblical definition, and I believe that it actually perverts the biblical definition.

But if you have biblical and/or other Greek usage of those aforementioned words that demonstrates that your definition is the more correct one, please let me know here, if you care to. I would appreciate it. (I'd rather not sidetrack this thread any more.)

Thank you.

P.S. If you do respond, I have little time for posting, and may not be able to respond 'til next weekend.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Paidion » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:31 pm

Steve wrote:Example #7: “So shall my heavenly Father do to you” (Matt.18:35)

In the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matt.18:23-35), his King, who first forgave him (obviously a reference to God, as Jesus points out at the end of the parable), is angry that the servant did not exhibit the same grace to his fellow servants. The result is that the King “delivered him to the torturers” (v.34). As if the parable is not sufficiently suggestive without an explanation, Jesus caps it off by stating explicitly, “So my heavenly Father also will do to you” (Matt.18:35).

Delivering people to torturers is thus directly identified by Jesus as something not inconsistent with the character of God. Again, many try to make this a reference to the final judgment, but doing so does not change anything that Jesus is saying about the character of God—a matter upon which Jesus and Paidion are clearly at odds.

I do not think the final judgment is in view here (though it could be). Jesus gives no indication that this is post-mortem—at least it was not so for the man in the parable, who is the only point of comparison with the reality Jesus is describing. I suspect that demonic bondage may be in view, but be that as it may, whenever and in whatever form this punishment occurs, Jesus makes it God who places the offender in the hands of torturers—and these torturers, in the parable, are clearly the King’s own agents.

There is no need to multiply further examples. It is my contention that no honest exegesis can denature these teachings of Jesus so as to make Him deny the judgment acts of God that Paidion denies (which he claims to deny on the basis of Jesus’ teachings!).

The examples multiply when we take into account the writings of the apostles and of Luke in the Book of Acts. I have brought up such examples in the past, but Paidion’s answer is that these apostles were mistaken—apparently being less familiar with the character of God and of Jesus than is Paidion himself, who alone is competent to point out to them their errors. Jesus sure must have picked the wrong crew to be the leaders of His movement, if, after spending all those years with them, they still thought the opposite of the truth about His character.

Look discerningly at any answers or alternative exegesis that may appear, later in this thread, concerning these passages. Note who, among those who comment, must twist the scriptures in the interests of a personal agenda. Also note if the only sound you hear turns out to be crickets chirping.


I decided to skip immediately to “Example 7.” I suspect that Steve regards this as his “crowning” example—the one I think that Steve believes clearly states that God will “deliver to the torturers” anyone who “does not forgive his brother from his heart their trespasses (actually the Greek word rendered “trespasses” means “blunders”).

The Greek word translated as “torturers” in the NKJV is the noun “βασανιστης” which is derived from the verb “βασανιζω” which is derived from the noun “βασανος.”

Until I was in my 40s, I believed in the eternal torture of the lost. My proof text was Revelation 20:10 which the NKJV translates as, “The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented (“lexical form is βασανιζω”) day and night forever and ever.” Though this verse specifically refers to the devil, the beast , and false prophet, I presumed that it extended to all lost souls. After I came to believe in the eventual reconciliation of all people to God, I wondered if my proof text actually said this. Even if the words are literally “into the ages of ages” rather than “forever and ever,” it seemed to still affirm that the lost would be tortured for a very long time. If an age is 1000 years, then even ONE age of ages would be a million years. Will the lost be tortured for millions of years? Then I discovered that the original meanings of “βασανος” was a touchstone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it. I then thought that the verb “βασανιζω” might mean “tested.” My thought was that the lost would be tested by God for as long as it took for them to repent (have a change of heart and mind) and submit to the authority of God.

In the parable to which Steve referred, the ESV translates vs 34 as, “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.” Perhaps “jailers” could be considered a poor translation of “βασανιστης.” However, it did seem to have been a practice at the time to put debtors in prison until they could pay their debt in full. Perhaps the jailers acted as “testers” to check whether the jailed person had yet obtained enough money from his relatives to pay the master—so that it could truly be said, “And in anger his master delivered him to the testers, until he should pay all his debt.”

Vs 35: “So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Christ's heavenly Father will also deliver unforgiving people to the testers until they repent. According to Revelation, the setting in which they will be tested is “the Lake of Fire.” The Orthodox Church sees this Fire as the presence of God. (Our God is a consuming fire). Everyone goes to the same “place” and experiences the Fire of God's love. Those who have repented and have submitted to God will experience it as ultimate LOVE and JOY. But those who resist, will experience this Fire as consuming all the evil within them—a painful process. For the former, it is “Heaven” and for the latter it is “Hell.”

Contrary to Steve's opinion of my position, I have never suggested that God never uses severe methods to correct a person. I believe He does do so where such methods are necessary. God's purpose is that “all will come to repentance” and will do whatever it take to bring this about. However, He will never any more discomfort than is absolutely required. What is required varies from one individual to another.

The writer to the Hebrews refers to this as “discipline” (ESV) or “chastening” (NKJV) and indicates that it's just what any loving father would do for his son. Doubtless the writer is speaking about the present life.

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:4-11 ESV)


So it seems to me that God corrects people both in this life as well as in the after-life.
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Paidion » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:33 pm

Steve, you have personally attacked me—stating that I am deceptive, dishonest, irresponsible, and disingenuous (insincere, giving a false appearance of simple frankness).

You have indicated that I have given weak explanations, ignored arguments.

That I have ignored 90% of the points you made to me—and for an obvious enough reason: I cannot answer them in favor of my position without denying God's promises and Christ's affirmations.

That I “quote non-authorities in an attempt to overrule the biblical authorities.” That one really threw me for a loop! You seem to have no idea that actually I quoted them for the purpose of showing that there are other brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ who think as I do concerning some of the matters that have been discussed.

That, before coming to the text, I decide just what I will or will not allow it to say.

How you claim to know that I cannot answer you without denying God and Christ, or how you know my state of mind in coming to a text, is beyond my understanding.

Candlepower, you have exceeded Steve in your personal attacks. Congratulations!

I do not intend to defend myself against these attacks. I rejoice, Steve and Candlepower, that when I am raised to life on the last day, that it is God who will be my judge, and not either of you. I often wonder how we'll all get along in the after-life. Will we continue to hold to our opinions of others? Or will God see that all is peace and harmony?

To live above , with saints we love, that will be such glory! To live below with saints we know, now that's another story!


To all others, farewell! I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and sharing mine with you in our mutual search for truth and reality.

Matt Rose, it is great that we agree concerning open theism and progressive revelation. But what I appreciate most about you, is the wisdom you have exhibited in your posts. You have always been respectful to everyone, and have shared important insights with us all.
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby steve » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:20 am

Paidion,

If you consider rebukes for your disingenuous behavior a "personal attack," then I stand guilty as charged. However, my accusations concerning your behavior are true and thoroughly documented in your own posts. That this is unacceptable behavior for a Christian is my judgment call, to be sure, as any correction or church discipline always involves a judgment call. However, I have not made such a call on any basis other than that of scripture and Christ's own teachings—and I think that I also have the Spirit of Christ. I am not alone in the effort to correct you, but ultimately, the buck stops with me in allowing or not allowing you to continue your agenda on this board.

It has been a very long time since I have witnessed, in a professed Christian, such a thorough disrespect shown to the scriptures, to Christ's teachings, and to truth itself. You will note that I never fired the first shot, but always responded to you after you had made your false accusations against God as He has revealed Himself in Christ and in scripture. I have spent many hours (days, actually) writing entirely non-accusatory responses to your heretical positions before finally being required to level the charges that I now level. You may prove this to yourself by reading the following threads (in addition to this one):

September, 2008 It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1116#p1116

May, 2012 Does God still inflict national or generational judgment?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4054

August, 2012 Did God Really Do This?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4152

July, 2013 OT equivalent of militant Islam?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4518

April, 2014 Proof Text for Eventual Restoration
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=4786

May, 2014 Is God a Hypocrite?
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4813


If you think I enjoy confronting one in error, you do not know my temperament. I do have responsibility for the quality and honesty of the dialogue here, and there have been very few people, over the years, who have played so fast-and-loose with the truth as you have regularly done upon this particular subject. When such people will not be corrected (after years of reproof) and show themselves less interested in honest discussion than in the promotion of their own novel heresies, there has occasionally come a time where we had to require them to post here no more.

You obviously have convinced yourself that this is a difference of opinion on the level of many minor differences that are happily tolerated here. This gives me grave concern for the state of your soul. Ultimately, of course, you do not answer to me (which is a cause for rejoicing, as you say)—but those who wish to remain on this forum do answer to me, since I am charged with the maintenance of its integrity. Had you shown yourself capable either of dealing honestly in these discussions, or avoided this topic, you would remain welcome here. However, you seem incapable of refraining your expression of this reinvention of God to suit your sentiments, and this has gone far enough. In many ways, we will miss you.
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Candlepower » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm

Hello Singalphile,

I agree with most of what you said in your response to me, but I'm trying to understand your position better. I bet if we could discuss this over a cup of hot coffee (and a slice of fresh apple pie) we would quickly discover we are pretty much in agreement. However, we are left to our keyboards and, unfortunately, probably will never meet.

So, are you saying that heresy involves only a spirit of divisiveness (sectarianism) and does include clear scriptural error of some sort? It sounds to me that that is what you are saying, but perhaps I'm reading you wrong. But if you are saying that, then it seems to me that any pleasant atheist would not be a heretic if he isn't argumentative and sectarian. Methodists, however, would be heretical because they don't belong to the Baptist group, Lutherans would be heretical because they don't belong to the Nazarene group, and I would heretical because I don't belong to any group, formally.

All I'm saying is that heresy can be either a divisive spirit or a significant Scriptural error, and usually it is both. In his recent posts, I think Steve used the word heresy correctly in describing both Paidion's attitude and his theological error.
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Jepne » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:23 pm

Thank you for your reply, Steve.

I read the first page of “Is God a Hypocrite?” as well as some of the other threads you listed, and I can see that we are at polar opposites concerning the scriptures and the nature of God. Having had to put so many scriptures 'on the shelf' over the years, I no longer have a literalist way of looking at them. Paidion gave his best shot at refuting your arguments, and it will be an education to go through them, so I am glad you listed them.

Then, it was nice of you to commend me as a wife, but what attracted me to Paidion was the very fact that he would not be attracted to a shrinking violet who would 'yes dear' his every word. In fact, we have spirited debate here on the home front as we search out the Spirit of God on matters. I hope to be a better wife than one who would simply rubber stamp all her husband says, out of sympathy or a false sense of loyalty. We have come to our views through much study and open discussion. I have never seen Paidion indulge in 'hijinx', 'play fast and loose' with the things of God, or have 'disdain for truthful interaction'. I wonder that you could know him so little after all these years.

''Paidion is a sweet guy. I know, because I have spent time with him. Joseph Smith may also have had his virtues, but this does not cancel his obligation to preach faithfully, or else stand public criticism...''

Many who know Paidion acknowledge his gentle spirit. Having read extensively about Joseph Smith, I am sure his sliminess would be immediately apparent to any true child of God.  Paidion has stood up quite well to what little 'public criticism' he has found in the Church community, where he shares quite often, as well as the internet. I have never seen him shrink from a challenge to his views, and many seem to appreciate the challenge they receive from him. It is love for the brethren that provokes him to persist in these matters.

Homer quoted Paidion's view of inspiration:
''That is, God influenced their minds as they wrote. This does not imply that their writings were without error. For God did not control their minds; He influenced them. Also, I do not believe inspiration is limited to the books that Athanasius happened to choose to comprise the "canon". Indeed I believe even people in our day are inspired to write (that is influenced by the spirit of God)."


Then Homer said in response:
''If this is true the Christian religion is built upon sand.''

This struck me as most tragic, because the opposite is true. Christianity becomes lifeless because of the view that the Bible was written by men whose minds were controlled, as in one who does automatic writing. They say that without scripture, we have no Christianity, but it is without the Living Christ that we have no Christianity! ...no matter how many manuscripts we have. 

Don’t get me wrong – this does not lessen the importance of the scripture – but the life and authority of them come from the Spirit of the risen Christ which he gave to us for the very purpose of leading us into all truth. The Spirit of God is necessary for interpretation of the scriptures - and the scripture necessary for substantiation of the Spirit. The scriptures come alive for people only after they have an encounter with the Living Christ and know in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead.

He said, “On this rock I will build my Church'' - the Rock of revelation of who he is – not the writings of his followers, which, curiously, he never mentioned we would have, or that he would order them to be written.

Jesus' accusers, who knew scripture, confused Jesus' works with the works of Satan, missing the whole salvation story, so there must be a standard for interpreting scripture that has more integrity than, ''the Bible says, it, I believe it and that settles it.'' Without the Spirit of God, man is doomed in his zeal to use the letter of the scripture to badger every one in his path into his belief, and thus, shore up his own blind spots.

******************

Perhaps you have heard the sad story of Bart Ehrmann whose faith was built on the inerrancy of scripture. I have read his words concerning this. When he went to Moody, then Wheaton, then Princeton, and realized he could no longer deny the discrepancies contained in the scriptures, he completely lost his faith, and went on to write book after book, pointing out these errors. I double dog dare any of you to read his books and see on what your faith is based. If the Spirit of God has not revealed to you that Jesus was raised from the dead, your faith is on shifting sand and you will not stand in the end. ''And this is eternal life, that you know me'' - not that ''...you know a book written about me''. If we don't come to know him as he really is, we have missed it all and have only a huge mass of memorized words and scripture references. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

Paidion has faced up to the discrepancies he has found in the Bible over all these decades and has come out with his faith intact, even substantiated and strengthened. I think it is for fear that one puts his fingers in his ears, shouts 'la-la-la-la-la' and then say things such as he is “....embarrassed by his own inability to face the scriptures and Christ honestly.'' He and I have gone over many of the scriptures that you have posted in argument, and I am amazed that you said that. He told you why your latest arguments didn't hold water. Not only is it that you just don't agree, but as I read this thread more than once, and parts of the others, I got the distinct impression that you had no regard for his explanations, if indeed you read them at all, and in many places, you presumed upon his meaning, thus, putting words in his mouth, which is akin to bearing false witness. 

******************************
Steve said,
''... there is no evidence that Paul ever killed a Christian or was directly responsible for their deaths.”






It looks like Paul took responsibility for the stoning of Steven; at least, that's enough evidence to get you the death penalty in some states in the US.
        
  ***************
When the Disciples gave a typical OT reaction to a problem facing them, Jesus rebuked them by telling them they did not know what spirit they were manifesting. We can be right exegetically but very wrong in our hearts, and that is what God is most concerned with.

Luke 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them...


You can argue for the punitive nature of the Father till the cows come home, but I dare say, ''you do not know what manner of spirit you are of.''

Teachers in my early days tried to put us into bondage of fear lest should we reach out our hand 'to steady the ark', we too could be stricken dead. It took decades to unlearn such foolishness, and see that those who live in that fear cannot abide one who is free of it.

The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.

Nevertheless, I'm hoping for the best.

Sincerely, Jean Clink
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Singalphile » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:03 pm

Having spend maybe an hour reading this whole thread, I want to say that I've seen nothing sinful in Paidion's behavior. This is a discussion board. People are supposed to share and promote their opinions. That's the reason why we're here. There's not a good reason to be ungentle and unkind (aka, rude).
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby Paidion » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:03 pm

No. I am not returning to discuss anything on this forum.

Recently, I read a book across which I recently came, called "Show Them No Mercy—4 views on God and Canaanite Genocide," and thought that some of the participants in this forum might be interested.

The authors of all 4 views hold to the authority and inspiration of the 66 books of the Protestant Canon of Scripture. Yet, the writer of the first view, C.S. Cowles, a former professor of theology at Point Loma Nazarene University, expresses my own view that God is totally good "in whom is no darkness at all"—that He is love, and that He didn't commit the atrocities that are recorded in the Old Testament as His having done. Cowles has succeeded in justifying this view in a way that I, obviously, was not sufficiently capable. I had hoped that I might succeed in precipitating a debate between him and Steve Gregg, but Cowles may no longer be alive. He had a serious disease a couple of year ago, and I can find no evidence either that he is dead or alive.

In my opinion, the other three "views" are essentially the same view—that the OT scriptures say that God commanded the genocide, and that therefore He did. Their differences on the matter are minor compared to the big issue.

Here is a brief overview of the book that can be found at the Amazon site:

A discussion of various contemporary evangelical views of genocide in the Old Testament. Christians are often shocked to read that Yahweh, the God of the Israelites, commanded the total destruction―all men, women, and children―of the ethnic group know as the Canaanites. This seems to contradict Jesus’ command in the New Testament to love your enemies and do good to all people. How can Yahweh be the same God as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? What does genocide in the Bible have to do with the politics of the 21st century? This book explores, in typical Counterpoints format, the Old Testament command of God to exterminate the Canaanite population and what that implies about continuity between the Old and New Testaments. The four points of view presented on the continuity of the Testaments are: • Strong Discontinuity ― C . S. Cowles • Moderate Discontinuity ― Eugene H. Merrill • spiritual Continuity ― Tremper Longman III • Eschatological Continuity ― Daniel L. Gard


Here is the Amazon site where one can purchase the book either in hard copy or in kindle format:

Show Them No Mercy

My earnest desire is that you will care enough about the integrity of God's character to read C.S. Cowles, the one who took the position of "Strong Discontinuity."

In the letter to Diognetus, the anonymous author who stated that he was "a disciple of the apostles," wrote,"...violence has no place in the character of God." (Diognetus, near the end of Chapter VII)

I just want to say in closing, that I love you all, and pray for you. I have absolutely no animosity toward any of you (including the one who raked me over the coals).

With love in the Altogether Lovely One,

Donald Clink
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Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Postby jasonmodar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:22 pm

Hey Paidion!

Paidion wrote:No. I am not returning to discuss anything on this forum.


I'll speak for at least myself and say that your wisdom and insight is missed. I learned much from reading your thoughts on spiritual matters.

Recently, I read a book across which I recently came, called "Show Them No Mercy—4 views on God and Canaanite Genocide," and thought that some of the participants in this forum might be interested.


I want to echo the recommendation of this book. I thought it was a good presentation of various views concerning the Canaanite Genocide. It includes rebuttals from each of the 4 authors. They present and critique one another's view point.

My earnest desire is that you will care enough about the integrity of God's character to read C.S. Cowles, the one who took the position of "Strong Discontinuity."


I took a class in college that covered Joshua, Judges and Ruth and an assignment from that class was a review of this book. This was 4 years ago so the details of the book and the assignment are a bit fuzzy. However, a few months ago while cleaning up some old paperwork I came across the assignment I turned in and more or less stand by what I wrote. I wasn't all that convinced by Cowles' view and ended up mostly lining up with Tremper Longman's. It was interesting though to read rebuttals to Cowels' view and Cowels' rebuttals of the other's views. I think I'll end up giving the book another read. Maybe 4 years later things have changed in my mind.


I just want to say in closing, that I love you all, and pray for you. I have absolutely no animosity toward any of you (including the one who raked me over the coals).


I pray for you as well. Not for a change of mind or anything like that; just prayers that you continue to grow in Christ. Just thought you'd like to know.
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