Why did Jesus stop reading?

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by steve » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:03 pm

Or is your belief that a totally good, loving, and righteous person can be a killer as remain just as good, loving, and righteous as ever? How about yourself? Can you go ahead and kill people, and still be a good, loving, and righteous member of your community?
Paidion,

Do you even read my responses to you? You appear not to.

User avatar
Candlepower
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Candlepower » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:26 am

Paidion wrote: You find it absurd? Absurd to state that God is not a killer...
Absolutely absurd (Wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate).
Paidion wrote:How about yourself? Can you go ahead and kill people, and still be a good, loving, and righteous member of your community?
Another absurdity from you, as if I condone indiscriminate killing, as you seem to imply.


Here's a correct description of my position:

An armed man has killed several hostages and is threatening to kill others if his demands are not met. A police sharpshooter manages to kill the man. The officer's action was good and justified.

A seven-year old girl is being held at knife point by a man attempting to kidnap her from her bedroom at night. Her mother hears the commotion, grabs a pistol, and rushes into the bedroom. Startled, the man releases the girl and charges at the woman, who fires and kills the would-be kidnapper. The woman's action was good and justified.

Several Jews incarcerated in an extermination camp, knowing their doom, attempt to escape over the fence at night. A guard encounters them. A scuffle ensues during which one of the Jews is killed while managing to break the guard's neck. The other Jews escape and the guard dies. The Jew's action was good and justified.

Under certain circumstances, killing another human is a good thing to do and is justified. God allows man to perform justifiable killing, but never to murder. When God kills it is always justifiable, and never murder.

Some Christians have developed the doctrine that it is never justifiable for man to kill. Being overwhelmed by squeamishness, they seem compelled to that conclusion. Because all killing is repulsive (to the sane and decent mind), they feel it must always be wrong. Further, they conclude, based on their self-righteous feelings, that God also opposes all killing and that He never indulges in it. Their giant problem, however, is that Scripture repeatedly describes God as a killer. Sometimes of one, sometimes of a few, sometimes of many. To overcome the many Scriptural proofs that their feelings about God not being a killer are wrong-headed, they simply twist those proofs until they don't say what they say, for them. For instance, they imagine that the Biblical writers were under the inspiration of Satan, not God, when they reported times when God killed. "It wasn't God," they say. "The Bible's wrong. The Devil did it, not God. The Father never kills. That's the start and finish of it."

But their doctrine actually starts with their soft-hearted squeamishness and leads them to conclude that, like them, God is too sweet to kill anyone. That is flippant theology. It allows those who believe it to flip the blame from God to someone else whenever Scripture says that God killed. That way, they figure, God is never liable. They're like Flip Wilson who said, "The devil made me do it." God, they assume (because of their squeamishness) cannot do what they personally find repugnant (like drowning the earth's population), so they concoct a way that He didn't. They slander Moses by conjecturing that he was under the influence of Satan, and dismiss him as an unreliable historian. In the process, they also dismiss (and slander) Jesus as unreliable, because He validated Moses. So goes the way of those who cannot read Scripture without trying to find ways to make it more comfortable for themselves.

Whenever God kills, it's a good thing. Those who have a problem accepting the Scriptural doctrine of justifiable killing need to get over it. But especially they need to stop slandering God by describing Him in ways other than how He describes Himself, by trying to conform Him to an image based on their own self-honoring view of themselves. The Father kills. He knows what He's doing. Praise God.
Samuel wrote:The Lord kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6)
Please, Paidion, don't tell me you think Satan inspired Samuel to say that.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:48 pm

Candlepower wrote:Whenever God kills, it's a good thing.
Why was it "a good thing" for God (as reported by Samuel) to have killed Uzzah for steadying the ark so that it wouldn't fall over when the oxen stumbled? Would you kill someone for committing such a "crime"?

Why was it "a good thing" for God (as reported by Moses) to have killed Onan for withdrawing while copulating with his brother Er's wife (Moses wrote that God had killed Er) in order not to raise offspring for Er? Would you kill someone for committing such a "crime"?

I noticed that when you gave examples of scenarios in which you believe it right to kill people, you didn't include examples remotely similar to the incidents described above.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:53 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:Do you even read my responses to you? You appear not to.
Of course I read your responses. But either they are so voluminous as to not be readily answered, or else they don't really support your position. As an example of the latter, you seem to think that Jesus words in John 10:10 contradict my point that if Jesus did the works of His Father while here on earth, and if the Father kills people, one would expect Jesus to kill people. You quoted:
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Your point seems to be that though the Father kills people, Jesus' ministry here on earth was not to kill but to give life, and so while the Father's works include killing people, it was not Jesus' works while He lived on earth as a human being.

However in fact, BOTH of Jesus' sayings support my view that God doesn't kill people—for the following reasons:

1. Jesus did the works of His Father (John 10:37,38). This did not include killing because the Father's works do not include killing.
2. Thieves come to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus did not come to kill and destroy, but to give life—exactly like His Father, who also doesn't kill and destroy, but gives life.
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Homer » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:36 pm

Paidion,

Wouldn't your logic then be that since a part of God's work was creation, if Jesus came to do the works of His Father He would have had to do some creation while He was on earth?

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by steve » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:54 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
Of course I read your responses. But either they are so voluminous as to not be readily answered, or else they don't really support your position. As an example of the latter, you seem to think that Jesus words in John 10:10 contradict my point that if Jesus did the works of His Father while here on earth, and if the Father kills people, one would expect Jesus to kill people.
Are you sure that you read my posts to you? Where did I ever quote John 10:10 in order to contradict your position? I didn't remember citing this scripture, and when I looked back at my previous posts, I failed to locate my having done so. You may be referring to my citation of Luke 9:56—"The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." This verse is not found in the most ancient manuscripts, and comes from the Texts Receptus. This raises questions as to whether or not it was an authentic saying of Christ, but the sentiments expressed are not controversial, and I believed you would accept it as correct.

If you actually do read my responses, perhaps you could answer the scriptural challenges that I actually present, rather than ones that I don't.

The proof I gave that your argument is fallacious was the same argument Homer just gave (above). I mentioned that God's works include many works that Christ never performed in His 33 years on earth—and I gave examples of the type Homer gave. It is obvious that your argument was:

A) Jesus did the works of the Father;
B) Jesus didn't kill anybody; therefore,
C) God doesn't and wouldn't kill anybody.

Not only does your conclusion contradict the plain declarations of every biblical writer, but the logic is plainly flawed. By the exact same reasoning, you would be forced to say:

A) Jesus did the works of the Father;
B) Jesus didn't create any planets; therefore,
C) God doesn't and wouldn't create any planets.

Your arguments are unscriptural and illogical—and your conclusion is heretical. Sorry.

I hope you may read my actual answer to you, and try to process the arguments I have raised, so that we might attempt to have an intelligent exchange.

User avatar
Candlepower
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Candlepower » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:56 am

Paidion wrote:I noticed that when you gave examples of scenarios in which you believe it right to kill people, you didn't include examples remotely similar to the incidents described above. (Uzzah & Onan)
Right. But I don't think those were unjustified killings either.

The scenarios I chose were for the purpose of making a point, which you seem to have missed. Here's my point: Justified killing is not bad; it's a good thing.
You see, your approach starts with the assumption that all killing is wrong. It's your personal preference based on your feelings. I understand that. But then you project your personal preference onto God and assert that He, like you, cannot and does not kill. Where the Bible clearly declares that God does kill (in both the OT & NT), you insert Satan (or something else) as the killer, and give it the credit due God.

I, on the other hand, start with the knowledge that killing is sometimes justified because God says so. Then I project that Biblical standard, which my three scenarios illustrate, onto the world we live in. My approach does not require me to invent a way to make Scripture agree with my way. Yours does.

Tell me, in scenario #2, for instance, do you agree that the mother was justified in killing the knife-wielding man threatening her and her daughter? Yes or no.

The examples you chose (Uzzah & Onan) serve only to continue your attack on the veracity of OT Scripture, Moses and Jesus. I have zero problem with God killing those two men. And no problem with the NT killings of Ananias and Sapphira, by God/Jesus. It's absurd to ask if I would kill someone for committing such crimes as Uzzah's or Onan's. As if my ways are above God's ways, or my thoughts is above His! I don't think God is obligated to act according to my ways. Or yours.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

I say Amen!

God killed those mentioned above, and he had good reasons (though one's feelings may be pinched, as were David's in the case of Uzzah). Those reasons can actually be exegeted with little difficulty from the text. But even if I couldn't figure out God's reasons, who am I (and who are you) to judge Him? As C.S Lewis said, He's not a tame lion.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:55 am

Here are a few of my thoughts which seem to land me somewhere in the middle of this debate

1. I believe that Jesus is the greatest revelation of God that we have.
2. I believe that we should interpret the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus' character
3. I believe this (#2) yields a view of divine wrath than is primarily divine withdrawal
4. I believe God is willing to take responsibility (put His name to) the consequences of #3
5. I believe it is sometimes loving to humanity to withdraw life-giving grace from an individual
6. I believe even in such cases, it is unlikely that God gives up on said individual (postmortem opportunity?)

I think this debate is interesting because I think Paidion is mostly right on points #1 and #2 and others have been under-emphasizing that point. I believe a thorough examination of point #3 would be edifying (see my article http://www.foundrypulpit.com/blog/wrath-redefined). I disagree with Paidion (and largely agree with his debate partners) about #4 and #5. And I think that #6 is an important but neglected part of this discussion too (I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread, so it's possible it has not been neglected).

Bottom line, I think the vast majority (at least) of the examples in Scripture of God utilizing violence is actually God withdrawing His grace (presence) from a situation which leaves chaos and destruction to rule the day. This seems to be a last resort of God in most cases (as I understand it). The overall goal of God, still... even through the withdrawal, is the redemption of humanity (and even every individual if possible).

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by Homer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:09 am

Hi Matt,

You wrote:
I disagree with Paidion (and largely agree with his debate partners) about #4 and #5.

4. I believe God is willing to take responsibility (put His name to) the consequences of #3
5. I believe it is sometimes loving to humanity to withdraw life-giving grace from an individual
It seems to me that you are employing a sort of euphemism in an attempt to protect God's reputation. If God caused Uzzah's death by withdrawing His grace, and by such withdrawal death is the direct and immediate result, which appears to have been the case, then it would seem that Uzzah died a natural death. One is left wondering why God's grace was not removed from Hitler for so many years.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Why did Jesus stop reading?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:35 am

I would say there is a difference between removal of grace (b/c someone's will was rejecting it) and the intrusion of control (against someone's free will).

If my child grew up and became rebellious, I may let them leave my protection (as a last resort). But that's quite a bit different from taking someone else's rebellious child and forcing them to live in my home against their will in order to learn good behavior.

Post Reply

Return to “Major and Minor Prophets”