For the following parallel scriptures, what was Jesus communicating? Was He saying different things in the different gospels or making the same point different ways?
Matthew 19:16 - 20:16
Mark 10:17-31
Luke 13:22-30
What they all have in common is statement about the last being first and the first being last.
The last will be first...
The last will be first...
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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Well...
over here...
Damon says it has to do with the order we're gonna be resurrected:
over here...
Damon says it has to do with the order we're gonna be resurrected:
Hopefully you'll get some more answers soon...... Here's another random but interesting tidbit. When Jesus begins the process of resurrecting all of the dead to stand before the throne of judgment, He'll begin with the last people to die, going backwards to the first who ever lived. (Mat. 19:29-30, 20:1, 8, 16) Like I'd mentioned elsewhere in another thread, it's as if history is reversing itself until we come back to Eden...
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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The statement of Jesus, that the first would be last and the last would be first, seems to have been used several times, in connection with different teachings, but always making essentially the same point. I believe "the first" refers to those who were, in His time, considered to be the privileged classes (i.e., the Jews and the rich, in contrast to the Gentiles and the poor, respectively). Then "the last" refers to the Gentiles and the poor—those regarded as underprivileged.
I don't think it has anything to do with the order of resurrection or judgment, but, rather, is predicting that many of the Jews, who were, historically, "the first" ethnic race to receive special privileges as God's people, would either fail to enter the privileges of the kingdom of God, or would at least come in later than would many Gentiles, who were "the last" to receive the opportunity to be God's people. This is what I believe is being said in Matthew 20:16 and Luke 13:30.
Likewise, rich men were considered the most favored people of society—"the first" in status among their neighbors. But Jesus said that they would be the most difficult to convert, and would thus be among the last to enter the kingdom. This is how I understand Matthew 19:30 and Mark 10:31 (which are parallels).
Thus Jesus is presenting something of the irony that present earthly privileges may actually hinder one from entering the kingdom of God. This point is brought out in other places in Christ's teaching, as well (e.g., Luke 14:12-14/16:25).
I don't think it has anything to do with the order of resurrection or judgment, but, rather, is predicting that many of the Jews, who were, historically, "the first" ethnic race to receive special privileges as God's people, would either fail to enter the privileges of the kingdom of God, or would at least come in later than would many Gentiles, who were "the last" to receive the opportunity to be God's people. This is what I believe is being said in Matthew 20:16 and Luke 13:30.
Likewise, rich men were considered the most favored people of society—"the first" in status among their neighbors. But Jesus said that they would be the most difficult to convert, and would thus be among the last to enter the kingdom. This is how I understand Matthew 19:30 and Mark 10:31 (which are parallels).
Thus Jesus is presenting something of the irony that present earthly privileges may actually hinder one from entering the kingdom of God. This point is brought out in other places in Christ's teaching, as well (e.g., Luke 14:12-14/16:25).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Jesus explained it
Doesn't Jesus' parable, recorded in Matthew 20 give the answer? He began the parable with "for", linking it to the statement He had just made about many of the first being last and vice versa. At the end of the parable, he concludes with the statement, ""So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Matthew 19:30- Matthew 20-16
"But many who are first will be last; and the last, first. For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’
And so they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’
He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
Don't I have the right to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’
So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Those who worked "one hour" received the same wage as those who worked all day.
My understanding is as follows:
Those who have served the Lord all their lives will receive the same "basic wage" as those who have become disciples near the end of their lives. This doesn't seem "fair" to us. Why should those who have lived wickedly all their lives, and then became disciples in the end, receive the same as those of us who have served the Lord and lived righteously nearly all our lives?
I think this shows that what counts is not what we HAVE done, but what we ARE at the time of our resurrection. Many of those who become disciples late in life, may, at the time of their death be in a state of deeper devotion and commitment to the Lord than those who have been disciples for many decades. Notice many (not all) of the last shall be first.
Jesus will recognize the depth and quality of their discipleship by rewarding them first. I am not sure what that reward is, but it is called "wages" in the parable, and so must be something that is theirs by agreement with the heavenly Landowner.
Matthew 19:30- Matthew 20-16
"But many who are first will be last; and the last, first. For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’
And so they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’
He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
Don't I have the right to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’
So the last shall be first, and the first last."
Those who worked "one hour" received the same wage as those who worked all day.
My understanding is as follows:
Those who have served the Lord all their lives will receive the same "basic wage" as those who have become disciples near the end of their lives. This doesn't seem "fair" to us. Why should those who have lived wickedly all their lives, and then became disciples in the end, receive the same as those of us who have served the Lord and lived righteously nearly all our lives?
I think this shows that what counts is not what we HAVE done, but what we ARE at the time of our resurrection. Many of those who become disciples late in life, may, at the time of their death be in a state of deeper devotion and commitment to the Lord than those who have been disciples for many decades. Notice many (not all) of the last shall be first.
Jesus will recognize the depth and quality of their discipleship by rewarding them first. I am not sure what that reward is, but it is called "wages" in the parable, and so must be something that is theirs by agreement with the heavenly Landowner.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Anonymous
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Hi Paidion,
Does it really seem unfair to you that those who become disciples near the end of their lives recieve the same wage as those who serve the Lord for longer? I can't imagine "grumbling at the Landowner" because of that. It would be like saying, "all those years wasted...I could have been mired in sin, but no, I was serving You...borne the burden...scorching heat... it's just not fair!" But I feel the opposite. I feel sorry for people who wait so long and miss a lifetime of knowing and serving the Lord.
I think the passages are about how privelege and honor in the world have nothing to do with what is rewarded in the kingdom, and that the kingdom was going to be much broader than the disciples thought it would be.
Does it really seem unfair to you that those who become disciples near the end of their lives recieve the same wage as those who serve the Lord for longer? I can't imagine "grumbling at the Landowner" because of that. It would be like saying, "all those years wasted...I could have been mired in sin, but no, I was serving You...borne the burden...scorching heat... it's just not fair!" But I feel the opposite. I feel sorry for people who wait so long and miss a lifetime of knowing and serving the Lord.
I think the passages are about how privelege and honor in the world have nothing to do with what is rewarded in the kingdom, and that the kingdom was going to be much broader than the disciples thought it would be.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I realize I should also have quoted Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
This explains what the agreement is, that the Landlord makes with His disciples.
Michelle, I think many would consider it unfair that those who become disciples near the end of their lives receive the same as those who have served all of their lives. Not because, as you suggest, that "they could have been mired in sin", etc., but for the following reasons:
First they served longer, and therefore think they should receive more, and second because in their many years of service, they had to suffer persecution as disciples (endure the scorching heat) whereas those who become disciples near the end do not have to endure such. It seems to be human nature to think that way. But I think our Lord shows that it is not a question of fairness to give everyone the same, but a matter of the wage that He agreed upon. His fairness comes up in especially honouring some by giving them their wages first. Those are not necessarily those who worked longest. Many of the first are in the group who come under the authority of Christ in their latter days.
You seem to have asked me personally whether I think it unfair. I am in no position to assess the works of our Lord as unfair or fair.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
This explains what the agreement is, that the Landlord makes with His disciples.
Michelle, I think many would consider it unfair that those who become disciples near the end of their lives receive the same as those who have served all of their lives. Not because, as you suggest, that "they could have been mired in sin", etc., but for the following reasons:
First they served longer, and therefore think they should receive more, and second because in their many years of service, they had to suffer persecution as disciples (endure the scorching heat) whereas those who become disciples near the end do not have to endure such. It seems to be human nature to think that way. But I think our Lord shows that it is not a question of fairness to give everyone the same, but a matter of the wage that He agreed upon. His fairness comes up in especially honouring some by giving them their wages first. Those are not necessarily those who worked longest. Many of the first are in the group who come under the authority of Christ in their latter days.
You seem to have asked me personally whether I think it unfair. I am in no position to assess the works of our Lord as unfair or fair.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Anonymous
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Sorry, Paidion, I didn't mean to ask you personally if you thought it was unfair.
Sometimes the things that most other people think/feel/worry about don't occur to me. Other times I get obsessed about things no one else seems to care about.
This is one of the things that just wouldn't bother me at all, but maybe most people would be bothered.
Sometimes the things that most other people think/feel/worry about don't occur to me. Other times I get obsessed about things no one else seems to care about.
This is one of the things that just wouldn't bother me at all, but maybe most people would be bothered.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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