For or against me

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Ian
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For or against me

Post by Ian » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:11 am

How are we to reconcile Jesus`apparently contradictory statements do you think?:

he who is not for me is against me
Matt 12v30

he who is not against me is for me
Mark 9v40

I read here* the imaginative explanation that in Matt 12v30 he`s referring to evil spirits but in Mark9v40 he`s referring to people. Kind of "whatever spirit is not for me is against me". The writer goes on to distinguish the type of spirit:

"If the spirit draws attention to itself, encourages you to develop a relationship with it, enjoys your praise, and thus leads you away from Jesus to glorify itself or to glorify yourself, it is a demon. Just tell it to go away in Jesus’ name and it will flee.
If the spirit prefers to be undetected, encourages you to develop a relationship with Jesus, gives Him all the glory, and only made itself detectable because you were in dire distress, then it is an angel."

In his Mark 9 lecture Steve seems to imply that the verses are subject to the circumstance at the time he said them. https://www.thenarrowpath.com/audio/ver ... 4-9.50.mp3 at 39.43

This seems to make Jesus a pragmatist. But I thought he was above acting on a merely pragmatic level.

Confused..

* https://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-43.htm

dwight92070
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Re: For or against me

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:08 am

I don't see a contradiction. Even Steve said that they are, essentially, the same thing.

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Re: For or against me

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:29 am

Here's a simple analogy:

If it's not wet, it's dry.
If it's not dry, it's wet.

How is that confusing?

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Paidion
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Re: For or against me

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:59 pm

That is NOT an analogy. For an object is either wet or not wet.
However, there are people who are neither for Jesus nor against him.

"He who is not for me is against me." Are the many people who have never heard of Jesus, against him? I don't think so.
"He who is not against me, is for me." Are the many people who have never heard of Jesus, and therefore are not against him, for him? Again, I don't think so.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: For or against me

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:29 pm

Hmmm, I thought it was an analogy. However, no need to get our shorts wrapped around the axel about it.

Reminds me of this statement:

Revelation 3:15-16
New Revised Standard Version
15 “I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

dwight92070
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Re: For or against me

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:34 pm

Paidion wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:59 pm
That is NOT an analogy. For an object is either wet or not wet.
However, there are people who are neither for Jesus nor against him.

"He who is not for me is against me." Are the many people who have never heard of Jesus, against him? I don't think so.
"He who is not against me, is for me." Are the many people who have never heard of Jesus, and therefore are not against him, for him? Again, I don't think so.
Dwight - I see your point. But don't you think then, that Jesus was referring to only those who had heard about Him?

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Re: For or against me

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:39 am

Rethinking the issue: In the first case, the person decided that he was not for Jesus, so obviously he had heard about Him. Likewise, in the second case, the person decided that he was not against Jesus, so obviously, he too had heard about Him.

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darinhouston
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Re: For or against me

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:42 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:39 am
Rethinking the issue: In the first case, the person decided that he was not for Jesus, so obviously he had heard about Him. Likewise, in the second case, the person decided that he was not against Jesus, so obviously, he too had heard about Him.
Not to beat an irrelevant horse, but one can also be ambivalent even if they had heard of him.

Logically speaking, this is the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Conversion/reversal of the terms in this case is not legitimate because there is an undistributed middle term (some can be neither for nor against Jesus).

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Re: For or against me

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:20 am

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:42 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:39 am
Rethinking the issue: In the first case, the person decided that he was not for Jesus, so obviously he had heard about Him. Likewise, in the second case, the person decided that he was not against Jesus, so obviously, he too had heard about Him.
Not to beat an irrelevant horse, but one can also be ambivalent even if they had heard of him.

Dwight - This misunderstanding is the exact reason Jesus even said this. Then they fit into Jesus' first category - if they are not for Him, (being ambivalent is NOT being for Him), especially having already heard Him, then Jesus is saying they are against Him, whether they think they are or not. (This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light.) After hearing Jesus, you can't sit on the fence.

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Ian
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Re: For or against me

Post by Ian » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:50 am

dwight wrote:

"After hearing Jesus, you can't sit on the fence"

I`m disposed to agree.

But "he who is not against me is for me" seems to cut those on the fence more slack than you or I in our zeal might. No?

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