Matthew 6:33 - All these things shall be added to you

[Guest]

Actually, Damon, I read, read, read, responded, responded, responded.

Whom will I know by their fruits? Wait, you're not having this conversation anymore.

Nope, I don't know your heart, nor do you. I don't know mine either. "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:9-10

Perhaps we can set up a session?

I have no right to condemn you. I have every right to critique your words. Maybe you just, ahem, don't know my heart.

a1

Remember, our conversation is over.

[Guest]

"Love is patient and kind......", 1 Cor. 13:4. "Let all bitterness and wrath and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." Eph. 4:31-32.

[Guest]

Anon-1,

Your tone in responding to Damon was combative and disrespectful, and I do not believe that there is evidence of charity in it. Even if you strongly disagree with his position (as I do), the scripture teaches that "the servant of the Lord must...be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition..." (2 Tim.2:24-25). The tone of your comments does not adorn your message, nor make it likely that you will win the heart or mind of the man you are seeking to correct.

[Guest]

Damon,

I am afraid that your answers to my points did not commend themselves to my reasoning faculties, so I will have to leave them for you to find convincing, and anyone else whose mind reasons like yours.

I have occasionally, in times past, found others who, like yourself, try to say that Jesus was not poor. They usually do so as part of an agenda to justify their own personal lifestyle preferences, which are at great variance with those of Christ and the early Christians. Unfortunately, the scriptures do not portray a "rich-man Jesus." Consider the following:

1. Jesus' parents were poor. That is why they were permitted to offer two birds at the dedication of their baby (Luke 2:24), which was the option given to those who were too poor to offer the lamb that was normally required of people possessing ordinary means (Lev.12:8);

2. Paul says that the grace of Christ is seen in the fact that He, in coming to earth, "became poor" for our sakes (2 Cor.8:9). Paul was much closer to the historical facts than we are, and I am inclined to believe him on this;

3. During His ministry, Jesus "had no where to lay His head," in contrast to foxes, which have holes, and birds, which have nests (Luke 9:58);

4. When He wanted to pay the 50-cent temple tax, rather than producing the coin from His own resources, He sent Peter to go out and catch a fish to pay for them both (Matt.17:24-27);

5. In making a point about paying tribute to Caesar, Jesus needed to display the inscription on a penny. He didn't have one, so He borrowed one from His opponents to make His point (Mark 12:15-16);

6. Jesus often spoke against the rich, and denounced them as having received their consolation in this life (Luke 6:24/ 12:20-21/ 16:19-25/ 18:24-25). He could hardly have made this point convincingly, if He was Himself a rich man!

In light of these biblical data, it seems very weak to say that Jesus was Himself rich, simply on the strength of His alleged relationship with a rich man, Joseph of Arimathea (a man who is nowhere in scripture said to have been related to Christ in any way).

As one who has now had many opportunitties to read your positions at this forum, in view of the stricter judgment that is to come upon teachers, I strongly recommend that you retire from your self-appointed role of Bible teacher until you become more committed to the Bible as an authority, and less interested in defending your lifestyle preferences by the tactic of reconstructing the gospel histories. While I disagreed with the spirit in which anonymous1 criticized you, I agree with the jist of his criticisms. I think you should take heed.

[Guest]

I have occasionally, in times past, found others who, like yourself, try to say that Jesus was not poor. They usually do so as part of an agenda to justify their own personal lifestyle preferences, which are at great variance with those of Christ and the early Christians. Unfortunately, the scriptures do not portray a "rich-man Jesus."

Your points bear some merit, but consider the following. In Matthew 11, Jesus is making a point about fault-finding people who are judgmental and critical of others, whether their points are valid or not (and consider Anon-1, here). Such people claimed that John the Baptist, who came "neither eating nor drinking", had a demon. This phraseology is an idiom meaning that John the Baptist lived a very simple life. He didn't do the social scene, in other words. Jesus, on the other hand, came "eating and drinking." He did do the social scene! He went to the right parties and managed to offend His well-to-do hosts a few times when they found Him being just as sociable with "sinners." Right?

For Jesus to have done the social scene means that He wasn't dirt-poor. His immediate family might not have been terribly well-to-do, and He Himself might have been itinerant - wandering around rather than having a permanent dwelling - but that didn't make Him dirt-poor.

Secular history confirms that Joseph of Arimathea was Jesus' great-uncle, by the way. According to Jewish law, only a close relative was able to claim the body of someone who had died, in order to bury it. Therefore, Joseph of Arimathea must have been closely related to Jesus. Secular history tells us exactly how they were related, but the bible itself, if understood correctly, clearly shows that they were related in some fashion.

As far as using the "Jesus was rich" argument to justify a certain lifestyle, that's not what I'm trying to do. I see my family as accepting of a standard of living that's pretty close to poverty level, and it grieves me to see them with the hardships and other attendant problems that result from their lack of abundance. In part, I'm saying these things because I'd like to see my family, and people like them, "prosper and be in good health." That's the Levitical blessing found in Numbers 6:22-26, as well as in 3 John 2: "Beloved, I desire above all things that you might prosper and be in good health, even as your soul [your spiritual life] prospers."

Therefore, what I've been saying is not unbiblical. Can we at least agree on that much?

While I disagreed with the spirit in which anonymous1 criticized you, I agree with the jist of his criticisms. I think you should take heed.

No, I'm not going to answer people like Anon-1 ever again. I'm not about to reward them for abusive behavior by answering them. I'm sure you can tell that that was exactly what he wanted: for me to answer him and continue the argument. I've had "friends" who have betrayed me and accused me of all sorts of things in the past, and I put up with it because I loved them and I wanted them to see the truth of things. What I ended up with is making the situation even worse by making them think that their abusive behavior towards me was okay! So, never again.

If he wants to answer me in a civil manner, that's another story, but I sincerely doubt he'll change his tune. I have enough experience to know that people don't change abusive behavior just because it's pointed out to them once or twice. Instead, I pray that someone will do exactly the same thing to him so that he knows how it feels (Mat. 7:2), and then maybe that'll provide the impetus for him to repent and change. But regardless, I pray for his repentance.

Damon

[Guest]

Hi guys. Steve, I plead guilty to the charges. Homer, I took note of the Scriptures you referenced, and only ask that you would take note of them as well and forgive me. Damon, Steve, and any who were offended at the tone of my remarks, I ask your forgiveness.

"If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering." Matthew 5:23-24

Hi Damon, can we be reconciled?

a1

[Guest]

Apology accepted. Please be more considerate in the future - of anyone, not just me.

If you'd care to continue the discussion peacefully, I'm willing to answer your points, but I'd really rather not get bogged down in judgmentalism (you of me or I of you) because all that does is push people away from repentance instead of drawing them towards it.

Damon

[Guest]

Hi Damon,

Thanks for your forgiveness. I will be more considerate.

That said, please allow to me suggest a couple of ways in which your own postings may be better received. Speaking from my own perspective, when you overuse italics, bold letters, etc. it comes off as condescending. Coupled with the expression "er" that you often use when attempting to correct people, I find this to be rude. Please accept this as a loving critique by someone who is trying to help you communicate better, even when I disagree. The mannerisms, for lack of a better word, with which you write can be distracting. Maybe you've never noticed this, nor intended this, and perhaps you disagree. If you see otherwise, hopefully my words will be of help.

Peace,

a1

[Guest]

Dear A1,

No need to ask my forgiveness as I took no personal offense whatever.

It seems to me we do not talk to one another in writing as kindly as we would face to face. I probably am guilty of this as well. We should set an example for any weak in faith or unbelievers who might read what we write.

In Christ, Homer

[Guest]

...please allow to me suggest a couple of ways in which your own postings may be better received. Speaking from my own perspective, when you overuse italics, bold letters, etc. it comes off as condescending.

I'm sorry that it's perceived that way. When I was growing up, I read a lot of church literature that used capital letters, bold and italics all over the place for emphasis' sake. I guess that's where I got it from. I don't mean it to be condescending; I only intend to emphasize things. I also try to write the way I speak, so that's why I often italicize words in the middle of a sentence.

I guess if it's distracting, I should tone it down regardless. ^^;;

Damon