Matthew 8:24-26

[Guest]

Matthew 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep. 25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. 26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?......KJV

Two possible ways to exegete v.26 re:faith might be that they didn't have faith that he could calm the storm or that, even if they perished, they didn't have the trust and belief in God that their perishing was in line with his will for them. Would you read it that way or another way?

Thanks,

livingink

[Guest]

The disciples believed that Jesus could probably do anything, but they had unbelief. In other words, they allowed what they were experiencing with their 5 senses to dominate and counteract their faith. In the episode where jesus walked on the water, it says: Then He went up into the boat to them, and the wind ceased. And they were greatly amazed in themselves beyond measure, and marveled. For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened. Mk. 6:51-52

I think Jesus was implying that THEY could have calmed the sea if they had faith that was not counteracted by unbelief. In other words, "why did you wake me up? couldn't you deal with it?"


TK

[Guest]

I think that would tend to imply that there are things which we can do for which we do not need Jesus. Can our faith move mountains or calm storms if we do not awaken Jesus? Can our faith move mountains or calm literal storms if we do awaken Jesus or are those simply hyperbolic statements? Can Christians stop the rain--I'm trying to think of any Biblical examples? I can have belief that Jesus can stop a storm and trust in him to do so if it is to his and possibly my benefit.

If I believe that I can stop a storm then I don't need Jesus. I do apparently need faith enough to use the force of my belief in myself to do so. You'll remember that Luke Skywalker couldn't raise the ship from the swamp because his ability to use the force was weak. Yoda, however, could raise the ship to solid ground because his use of the force was mature--he believed he could do it and thought it into existence. So, I might argue that a person simply needs to be a Jedi Master to speak things into existence through words which are containers of the force.

Maybe that's not enough. Maybe we also need to have chin whiskers, be bald, green and short. And walk with a staff. What do you think?

livingink

[Guest]

Who said anything about not needing Jesus? Even Jesus had to operate in the HS during his earthly ministry. He relied totally on the Father.

Of course I believe that Christians can change the weather. Obviously WE aren't changing it, God is. But if we have faith, and no unbelief, I believe that God can work through us. Why not?

Here is a testimony from Jason Upton regarding what he feels was an experience of changing the weather. a cynic would say it was coincidence; a believer would say it was God. I suppose those are the only two options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VILPyGtzNv4

TK

[Guest]

I apparently missed your point with the Mark reference or else I would interpret it differently. No matter. I have to discuss this tonight in a bible study so I'll go with what I've got. Thanks for the comment.

livingink

[Guest]

Now that I've had a little time to research, I would think that the disciples would have a good case for saying that they couldn't deal with it. Since they were experienced fishermen, they would have anticipated the Sharkiyeh winds and probably stayed on shore had Jesus not requested that they attempt the Capernaum to Gergesa crossing as described in the Matthew reference. This subjected the boat to a fierce crosswind as well as waves that could have swamped the boat. They also would have been attempting this crossing in the dark though that may not have been unusual for this particular group of disciples.

In answering the original question, I asked "little faith in what or who"? Could it be God as in my original post? Maybe. Did he mean "don't you fellows have belief and trust in your skills to make this crossing? After all, you've been on this lake for 15-20 years honing your skills." I rejected that because it appeared that they didn't have that faith in themselves. Generally, our consensus was that he was asking whether they had faith in him since he had requested the crossing and since they went to him for assistance. They both believed and trusted him to make the lake calm even though they still didn't quite know who he was or how he would do it. Based on their previous experience with him, they thought he could do the unusual and trusted him to do it.

Just as a side point, I believe the Mark reference concerns a separate incident, though similar.

livingink

[Guest]

Hi L.I.-

I might be missing what you are asking, and for that I apologize.

Its seems to me, that Jesus is rebuking the disciples for their lack of faith. This is borne out in the parallel accounts in Mark and Luke. (My Mark reference was indeed to the different episode of Jesus walking on the sea).

I agree with you that it was not lack of faith in their seamanship, for reasons you noted. Skill can only do so much when you have a relatively small boat in rough seas.

I don't think he was rebuking them for their lack in faith in God (that if they perished in the storm, to accept it as God's will). God created us with survival instinct. We are not to sit back and do nothing in an emergency situation, reasoning that it might be God's will for me to die. That doesn't fit.

I also question whether he was rebuking them for their lack of faith in him (jesus). The reason I say this is that they DID wake him and ask him for help. They viewed him as their only hope. Granted, they were indeed scared and at the end of their rope, but they called out to Jesus to save them. If that isn't faith, what is?

I really think the rebuke is about something else. I still think it may be about their lack of faith to do something about the storm themselves, although I am not entirely sure.

TK

[Guest]

I just checked out the parallel version in Mark 4. The KJV reads (v 38 ) :

And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

This version of the story makes it easier to see why jesus rebuked them. they were saying something ridiculous and a little sarcastic, and He called them on it.

TK

[Guest]

Hi TK,

I understand what you are saying here, and I kind of remember that you don't like sarcasm. I kind of disagree with your conclusions about this episode.

I just checked out the parallel version in Mark 4. The KJV reads (v 38 ) :

And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

This version of the story makes it easier to see why jesus rebuked them. they were saying something ridiculous and a little sarcastic, and He called them on it.

TK

Here's the whole story in Mark 4:34 - 41

• On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, "Let us cross over to the other side."
  Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him.
  And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?"
  Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased and there was a great calm.
  But He said to them, "Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?"
  And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, "Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!"

It says he rebuked the wind. How do you get that Jesus was rebuking his disciples? Is it because they feared exceedingly? It seems to say that was because the wind and sea obeyed him. What had they learned up to that point about controlling nature that would have prepared them for this episode? Why would they assume that they could just speak to the storm themselves?

If your interpretation is correct, (and perhaps it is, I'm really not sure one way or another) do you think that God still rebukes, or at least wants to rebuke, those of us whose faith has been counteracted by unbelief?

[Guest]

Maybe "rebuke" is too strong of a word.