Mark 9:14-29
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Mark 9:14-29
I am not a Word of Faith fan, but Jesus seems to imply a need for faith in order to remove these demons. And what about verse 29? What does this really mean in terms of application in our own lives?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Nicole,
One does not have to be a follower of the "Word of Faith" teaching in order to see the vital role of faith in all things pertaining to the Christian life and ministry. We not only are justified through faith (Rom.3:28), but we also receive the Spirit of God through faith (Gal.3:2), we "live by faith" (Gal.2:20), we receive answers to prayer by faith (Mark 11:24), we operate the gifts of the Spirit through faith (Rom.12:6), and we conduct our spiritual warfare against the powers of darkness through the same (Eph.6:16/1 Tim.6:12).
Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6), and the man whose faith wavers should not expect that he will receive anything from the Lord (James 1:6-7). As is made plain in the scripture you brought up— Mark 9:19 (compare the parallel account in Matt.17:19-20)—the casting out of demons (being an aspect of the spiritual warfare) also requires faith.
The problem with the Word of Faith teaching is NOT that it places too much emphasis on faith (it would hardly be possible to do so), but that it puts a dangerous spin on its definition of faith. In the scripture, faith is the disciple's childlike trust and resignation to the will of his father and his confidence that God is capable of solving every problem and removing every obstacle that would prevent His will from being done. Faith is also the settled confidence that God cares about us and has our best interests at heart even when He must deny our specific request.
In the Word of Faith teaching, faith is a metaphysical power that controls all reality, including God. The Word of Faith sees the universe and God Himself as subject to the "laws of faith." These laws dictate that you will have precisely what you believe you will have and what you confess to be so. In this system, God is not the object of faith, but faith itself is the object of faith. Believers are encouraged to have faith in their faith. With adequate concentration of faith, you can have whatever you desire. God and His will for a situation are left out of the loop entirely.
I am not saying that the Word of Faith people don't believe in God. Of course they do. But they believe that it is faith, not God, that is sovereign. Even God must be subject to the laws of faith, and can only do miracles as He employs these faith principles. The bottom line is that the faith of Word of Faith has more in common with magic and the occult than with biblical faith. In the former, the practitioner is in control of reality; in the latter, God is.
As for Mark 9:29, there is a textual question about the mention of fasting there (some manuscripts include it and some do not). On the whole, I personally believe it is an authentic statement of Christ, and I therefore believe that prayer and fasting are potent means of conducting the spiritual warfare and routing demons from their entrenched positions. I am not aware of anything that has changed since the days of Christ in this respect, and would recommend prayer and fasting in situations where the enemy has a stubborn foothold.
One does not have to be a follower of the "Word of Faith" teaching in order to see the vital role of faith in all things pertaining to the Christian life and ministry. We not only are justified through faith (Rom.3:28), but we also receive the Spirit of God through faith (Gal.3:2), we "live by faith" (Gal.2:20), we receive answers to prayer by faith (Mark 11:24), we operate the gifts of the Spirit through faith (Rom.12:6), and we conduct our spiritual warfare against the powers of darkness through the same (Eph.6:16/1 Tim.6:12).
Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6), and the man whose faith wavers should not expect that he will receive anything from the Lord (James 1:6-7). As is made plain in the scripture you brought up— Mark 9:19 (compare the parallel account in Matt.17:19-20)—the casting out of demons (being an aspect of the spiritual warfare) also requires faith.
The problem with the Word of Faith teaching is NOT that it places too much emphasis on faith (it would hardly be possible to do so), but that it puts a dangerous spin on its definition of faith. In the scripture, faith is the disciple's childlike trust and resignation to the will of his father and his confidence that God is capable of solving every problem and removing every obstacle that would prevent His will from being done. Faith is also the settled confidence that God cares about us and has our best interests at heart even when He must deny our specific request.
In the Word of Faith teaching, faith is a metaphysical power that controls all reality, including God. The Word of Faith sees the universe and God Himself as subject to the "laws of faith." These laws dictate that you will have precisely what you believe you will have and what you confess to be so. In this system, God is not the object of faith, but faith itself is the object of faith. Believers are encouraged to have faith in their faith. With adequate concentration of faith, you can have whatever you desire. God and His will for a situation are left out of the loop entirely.
I am not saying that the Word of Faith people don't believe in God. Of course they do. But they believe that it is faith, not God, that is sovereign. Even God must be subject to the laws of faith, and can only do miracles as He employs these faith principles. The bottom line is that the faith of Word of Faith has more in common with magic and the occult than with biblical faith. In the former, the practitioner is in control of reality; in the latter, God is.
As for Mark 9:29, there is a textual question about the mention of fasting there (some manuscripts include it and some do not). On the whole, I personally believe it is an authentic statement of Christ, and I therefore believe that prayer and fasting are potent means of conducting the spiritual warfare and routing demons from their entrenched positions. I am not aware of anything that has changed since the days of Christ in this respect, and would recommend prayer and fasting in situations where the enemy has a stubborn foothold.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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FAITH
Steve, Are'nt there many instances which equate God's responces with the level of faith we have. "Daughter you have been healed because of your faith" this after the woman with the blood problem persistently followed Jesus through the crowd and BELIEVED she would be healed by just touching his garment. " Be it done to you according to your faith" indicates not only by having faith but by according to or in correlation to the amount of faith. And i think words are important also as Jesus said to "speak to the mountain" not about the mountain and John the Baptists father had his lips zipped because he spoke unbelief. These type of statements are not uncommon in scripture but i'm not saying healing is guarenteed in the atonement but it does seem that there is a relationship to faith ,generally speaking.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Steve, I meant , are'nt there examples in scripture where it seems the level of one's faith is connected to the chances of being healed. I heard your lecture on the "word of faith" theology and i think you said faith is like belief , either you believe or you don't so either you have faith or you don't. Belief is like that but it seems like you can have varying intensities of faith and your faith can be tested and exercised. Jesus marveled at the centurion's faith , meaning not just his faith but the amount of faith he had which he had not seen in all of Israel. The woman with the blood disease showed great faith , not ordinary faith and she was rewarded because of her persistence not just because she believed but because she exercised her great faith. Why would examples like this be in scripture if it did'nt mean something.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Right. I can't see anything in your statement to disagree with. Faith is simply belief. However, some people hold the beliefs more firmly (i.e., are more determined to believe) than others. In that sense, some have "great faith," and others have "little faith."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
I have a silly question.
are there any ministers around today who purport to have a strong healing ministry but that arent WOF proponents?
TK
are there any ministers around today who purport to have a strong healing ministry but that arent WOF proponents?
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
There are many instances of healing recorded in the New Testament (as well as casting out demons) where faith is not mentioned as a factor. Here are just three:
Matthew 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.
Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
Matthew 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
It seems to me that Jesus, as well as his disciples, sometimes actively healed and cast out demons apart from any faith in those about to be healed.
In other cases, the faith of a person seemed to be the cause of a healing.
Even today, it is known that a person's belief that he will be healed can create some kind of factor in his body which will promote healing. Also, faith can be contagious. Faith that another person will be healed, can help that other person to believe, and thus be healed.
Thus some healings happen naturally as a result of faith. I think when Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well," He meant it literally.
Matthew 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.
Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
Matthew 10:1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
It seems to me that Jesus, as well as his disciples, sometimes actively healed and cast out demons apart from any faith in those about to be healed.
In other cases, the faith of a person seemed to be the cause of a healing.
Even today, it is known that a person's belief that he will be healed can create some kind of factor in his body which will promote healing. Also, faith can be contagious. Faith that another person will be healed, can help that other person to believe, and thus be healed.
Thus some healings happen naturally as a result of faith. I think when Jesus said, "Your faith has made you well," He meant it literally.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
i recently listened to a teacher talking about the necessity of "speaking" to your problem instead of simply praying about it.
he referenced the episode of Jesus cursing the fig tree, and His later statement regarding "speaking" to a mountain. he also referenced the woman who was healed of the issue of blood; Jesus had no idea she was even there (she was likely crawling on the ground) and she said "if i can only touch the hem of his garment."
in other words, this teacher was making the point that God doesnt want us to pray to Him about a specific problem; rather He wants US to deal with it, in faith, as He has given us authority to do so. As a practical example, rather than praying "Father, please heal my friend of this cancer if it be your will," we should lay our hands on our friend and say "cancer, in the name of Jesus, shrivel up and die(or something along those lines."
what do you all think about this?
TK
he referenced the episode of Jesus cursing the fig tree, and His later statement regarding "speaking" to a mountain. he also referenced the woman who was healed of the issue of blood; Jesus had no idea she was even there (she was likely crawling on the ground) and she said "if i can only touch the hem of his garment."
in other words, this teacher was making the point that God doesnt want us to pray to Him about a specific problem; rather He wants US to deal with it, in faith, as He has given us authority to do so. As a practical example, rather than praying "Father, please heal my friend of this cancer if it be your will," we should lay our hands on our friend and say "cancer, in the name of Jesus, shrivel up and die(or something along those lines."
what do you all think about this?
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Let me know if it works for you.what do you all think about this?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald