John 14 and Heaven

[Jason]

I've heard Steve Gregg's take on John 14:2 a number of times, as well as N.T. Wright's commentary on it. Here's the verse:

In My Father's house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

The standard view is that the "Father's house" is a reference to heaven and dwellings (Gk: mone) refers to the believer's place in heaven. Steve objects to this interpretation, believing instead that the "Father's house" is a reference to the church or body of Christ. He notes John's use of "mone" in verse 23 of the same chapter. Steve also argues that the Father's house is a reference to the temple elsewhere in scripture, thus showing his interpretation to be correct. I could be totally off on this one so maybe Steve can step in and correct me.

I have some questions for those who hold this view. Jesus is trying to comfort his disciples in chapter 14 and that's the obvious context. He tells his disciples there are many dwelling places in his Father's house and that he was going there to make a place for them. Where is he going? It would seem that if his Father's house was a reference to the church (people of God) then he's actually doing the exact opposite, since he's talking about leaving them in this verse.

After this Jesus tell his disciples they know the way he's going, to which Thomas objects, saying he doesn't know where or the way Jesus is going. Jesus then responds, surprisingly, that he himself is the way. Again, he hasn't clearly said where he's going yet, just that he's leaving the disciples. In verse 12 he clarifies a bit, saying that he's going to the Father. So it would seem that wherever the Father resides is where Jesus is going. And this indeed is a comforting thought for him to leave with them. But I'm not sure Steve's interpretation quite fits the flow of thought in this chapter. I now tend to see verse 2 the way N.T. Wright does, which is a reference to heaven. When Jesus died he gave his spirit to his father and went to paradise. I believe this is the paradise Paul spoke of in his vision. It just seems to make sense.

Anyway, I'd love to open a discussion here.

[TK]

i have wondered the same thing when i heard steve's explanation (which is viewable on youtube!)

steve's explanation makes logical sense, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what he believes Jesus meant and what the disciples were likely thinking about. of course we cant really know what the disciples thought for sure.

i am interested in his response.

TK

[darinhouston]

I think when He says He's going "there" to make a mone, it's not necessarily the "there" where the mone would be made. Yes, He's going to the Father, but He's going there "so that he can" make a dwelling place (on earth). I don't understand it, but I think this is like saying He had to go so the Spirit could come. For some reason, neither of those things could happen until He left. But, then He would return by the Holy Spirit. That's the way I see it anyway.

[Suzana]

I also think Steve's explanation is the most logical.
A few years ago I came across a taped series (on the internet) from some guy who purportedly was taken on a trip to heaven, & had trips in heavenly chariots & other amazing things; he also says he saw building materials strewn about, & buildings being erected.
I stopped listening right there.

[steve]

I have some questions for those who hold this view. Jesus is trying to comfort his disciples in chapter 14 and that's the obvious context. He tells his disciples there are many dwelling places in his Father's house and that he was going there to make a place for them. Where is he going? It would seem that if his Father's house was a reference to the church (people of God) then he's actually doing the exact opposite, since he's talking about leaving them in this verse.

Jesus was clearly going to be with the Father in heaven (Acts 3:21/1 Peter 3:22/Phil.3:20). This is not ambiguous. However, heaven is never referred to as the Father's "house"—nor does Jesus mention anything about His going away to the Father's "house." The Father is not in only one place. He is in every place—but not every place is referred to as His "house." A house, whether for men or for God, is an earthly habitation (we read of houses in no other places). God has always more than filled the heavens, but His house has always been on earth—a point at which Solomon marveled (1 Kings 8:27). That Jesus went to heaven to be with the Father, we cannot dispute. But we also cannot ignore that Jesus said He and His Father will make their dwelling place with the believer on earth (apparently without leaving heaven)—John 14:23.

Jesus' words of comfort to the disciples had this import: Previously, in John 2:19-21, Jesus had referred to His own human body as God's "temple" (or house, or dwelling on earth). Now (in John 14) He was leaving. Was God then no longer to dwell on earth in a temple (house) among the disciples? No, says Jesus, the Father's house has many compartments—not just one (as was the case of Jesus' earthly body)—and He dwells in each one. He will still be living among them in an earthly temple/house. It will no longer be the body of Christ as they have known it, but it will be the body of Christ in its new mode—comprised of many members—each being indwelt by God.

It may appear as if Jesus is leaving them as orphans (with the Father's presence among them departing with Jesus), but in fact, Jesus and the Father (through the Holy Spirit) will be with them as much as ever—or even more than ever, because He will dwell in them, preparing for each of them a functional "place" in the structure of this corporate house (1 Corinthians 12:18).

I am not sure how a discussion about their someday being taken away to heaven could have either been more comforting to them than this, or how it could have been relevant to what they were about to experience upon Christ's departure.

[Jason]

Steve, thanks for such a full explanation. I think the reason people like me get confused here is because, while we all know God dwells in His people, the bible also says he dwells in Heaven. So when Jesus departed, he apparently went to this place/existence called Heaven/Paradise. That doesn't mean Heaven is far away or "up there" but I think we both agree that Jesus went to Heaven when he left his disciples.

I'll grant you that God's house is a reference to his dwelling place (with his people) but this still renders verses 3-4 pretty strange:

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Such cryptic language isn't uncommon in John's gospel but this statement of Jesus prompted all sorts of confusion from Thomas, and probably the others. It just sounds like Jesus is saying "I'm going somewhere but later I'll bring you with me." We can establish that the Father's house is where he dwells or rests (Is 66:1) but it seems like he dwells in multiple places at once. Sorry for being obtuse but I really like unpacking Jesus' words, especially in the gospel of John.

[steve]

I too would appreciate more insight about the meaning of Jesus' words in verse 4—"And where I go you know, and the way you know.” I find many things in John's Gospel difficult as well.

When Jesus said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself," I don't know if He means at the second coming, or if He means the same thing He is saying in verses 16-18, where He is clearly talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit. The latter seems to fit the discussion topic better, but, like most people, I have been raised thinking of this as a reference to the second coming, to the point that it is hard to see it otherwise.

Even if it is a reference to the second coming, it does not mention anything about Jesus taking His disciples away to another place. It refers to Him coming to where they are (earth) and gathering them to Himself (since He would then be on earth, this gathering would apparently also be on earth). There is no hint here of taking the church to heaven. Though Jesus is there now, heaven is not His permanent base of operations (Acts 3:21/ Rom.4:13), nor will it be ours (1 Thess.4:14/ Matt.5:5/ Rev.5:10).

[AaronBDisney]

Any ideas on why the word Mansions is the translation of Mone in the KJV? It seems the translators were particularly influenced by one understanding of the passage. Not to mention the idea of MANSIONS inside a house is an odd picture. I also suspect strongly that Steve's interpretation is the correct one. Never thought I'd have to wrestle with that passage until I heard that take on it.....makes real good sense if you ask me.

[Paidion]

Any ideas on why the word Mansions is the translation of Mone in the KJV?

The reason is that the English word "mansion" simply meant "dwelling" in the 16th century. So the KJV translated it correctly for that day. Somehow the word changed in meaning, as so many English words have done, so that it presently has come to mean "a very large, luxurious house." When people interpret the passage according to its changed meaning, they come to the conclusion that Jesus went to heaven to construct mansions for all His disciples. Since Jesus ascended, about 2000 years have passed. Would it take Him that long to construct these mansions before He "comes and takes them to Himself"?

Here are some scriptures that might help to understand that which Jesus went to prepare (essentially what Steve teaches):

You are ... God's building I Corinthians 3:9

Sometimes Paul uses the figure of a Body to describe Christ's Assembly (or "Church" if you prefer), but in this verse, he uses the figure of a field, and also a building. I see the Assembly of God as having been prepared on that special day of Pentecost, when the Spirit was given, and Christ went away to prepare that Assembly (or figuratively "building"). He prepared a place in that building for every one who was His disciple prior to that special day of Pentecost. He told His disciples that unless He went away, the Encourager (Spirit) could not come. Why? Because "The Lord Jesus IS the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:17), and in order for the Spirit (which is the Father and the Son) to come into that "building", Jesus had to go away, and return into the "building" together with His Father, as the Holy Spirit.

In John 14:23, it is recorded that Jesus said:

"If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him." It is the same Greek word "μονη" as was used in verse 2 (although for some unknown reason the KJV does not render "make our mansion with him" in verse 23).

If the Father and the Son make their abode with Christ's disciples, is that not the Spirit or God and the Spirit of Christ? They flow together as One Spirit. Why postulate a THIRD Person? It's written that in some sense God dwells in Heaven, with Jesus at His right hand. But through their Spirit they dwell with and within Christ's disciples.

Peter also uses the figure of a house to describe the Assembly of God. He considers its members to be "living stones" which make up its construction"

...like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 2:5


When Jesus said, "You know the way", He may have meant that His disciples knew the way of discipleship. He had instructed them that only those who forsook all and followed Him could be His disciples. Discipleship was the way into the Kingdom, and discipleship is the way into the House (The Assembly), where there are many dwelling places, a place in which every "living stone" will fit.

When Thomas asked Him how they could know the way, He explained that He was the way into the House, that He was the Reality in that House, and that He was the Life within that House.

He promised His disciples that He would prepare a place for each of them in the Father's House (the Assembly or "Church") and that He would come again (as the Holy Spirit) to take them to Himself so that they could make their abode within the Assembly of God.

[AaronBDisney]

The reason is that the English word "mansion" simply meant "dwelling" in the 16th century. So the KJV translated it correctly for that day. Somehow the word changed in meaning, as so many English words have done, so that it presently has come to mean "a very large, luxurious house." When people interpret the passage according to its changed meaning, they come to the conclusion that Jesus went to heaven to construct mansions for all His disciples. Since Jesus ascended, about 2000 years have passed. Would it take Him that long to construct these mansions before He "comes and takes them to Himself"?

I don't know why that never occurred to me. I guess I assumed, as most people have, that mansions always referred to a large, luxurious house. But many words are used quite differently now. For instance the 'letting' in "he that now letteth will let....." from 2 Thess. 2 refers to restraining - but in today's tongue, letting means just the opposite, allowing.

Thanks, Paidion, I can see now that it's not likely the KJV interpreters trying to put a spin on something there, but an evolving language that causes the confusion. I like the KJV better than any other version, but occasionally, the archaic language can really get you stuck in one particular interpretation due to the wording.