I don`t know if "reconcile" is quite the right verb. But:
"Whoever does not believe will be condemned"
follows about three days after:
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing".
The latter is uttered by Jesus at the height of his agony, the former seemingly not.
I find it hard to marry these two sayings of Jesus in my head. Any thoughts?
Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
I don`t know if "reconcile" is quite the right verb. But:
"Whoever does not believe will be condemned"
follows about three days after:
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"
The latter is uttered by Jesus at the height of his agony, the former seemingly not.
I find it hard to marry these two sayings of Jesus in my head. Any thoughts?
I think the word translated as "condemned" (krisis) or (krinos) is better translated as "judged" and through judgment unbelievers can ultimately find forgiveness.
"Whoever does not believe will be condemned"
follows about three days after:
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"
The latter is uttered by Jesus at the height of his agony, the former seemingly not.
I find it hard to marry these two sayings of Jesus in my head. Any thoughts?
I think the word translated as "condemned" (krisis) or (krinos) is better translated as "judged" and through judgment unbelievers can ultimately find forgiveness.
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
I`ve read accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgement for krisis. Not good news however you look at it.
I`m struck though by the short time span between the two statements of Jesus. He`s moved from one possible future scenario to a potentially very opposite one in those 3 days. Was there something he knew post-resurrection that he didn`t know pre-death?
I`m struck though by the short time span between the two statements of Jesus. He`s moved from one possible future scenario to a potentially very opposite one in those 3 days. Was there something he knew post-resurrection that he didn`t know pre-death?
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backwoodsman
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Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
I don't see any conflict, or really any relationship between the two. Luke 23:34 is a plea for mercy toward those who crucified him, like what we're commanded to do -- pray for those who persecute you, etc. Mark 16:16 is simply a statement of a fact, with no particular person(s) in mind.
It's not clear from Mark, but it was 40 days after the resurrection, so about 43 days between the two verses.
It's not clear from Mark, but it was 40 days after the resurrection, so about 43 days between the two verses.
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
Is it possible that Jesus was not praying for the forgiveness (in terms of salvation) of those who crucified Him so much as their being spared the immediate punishment that they were earning for themselves in crucifying Him? It seems that, if Uzza's touching the ark, and Ananias and Sapphira's lying to the Holy Spirit, warranted instant death, perhaps we are to understand that those who were crucifying Christ would have been instantly struck down by God, were it not for His intercession for them.
On the possible view that the Jewish War (66-70 AD) was the second half of Daniel's 70th week, it may be that the Roman invasion would normally have followed immediately upon the crucifixion of Christ. That is, Christ died in the middle of the "week", and, under normal circumstances, the second half (the Jewish War) would have come upon Israel for their sacrilege of killing Christ right afterward.
On that view, Christ's intercession for the generation that killed Him might be seen as postponing the judgment until they had, for the most part, died off.
Just a hair-brained suggestion, perhaps. Always thinkin'!
On the possible view that the Jewish War (66-70 AD) was the second half of Daniel's 70th week, it may be that the Roman invasion would normally have followed immediately upon the crucifixion of Christ. That is, Christ died in the middle of the "week", and, under normal circumstances, the second half (the Jewish War) would have come upon Israel for their sacrilege of killing Christ right afterward.
On that view, Christ's intercession for the generation that killed Him might be seen as postponing the judgment until they had, for the most part, died off.
Just a hair-brained suggestion, perhaps. Always thinkin'!
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
And outside the box, as so often! Thank you SteveAlways thinkin'!
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
Died off, and/or repented and believed — on Pentecost, three thousand believed Acts 2:41, later the number of men was five thousand Acts 4:4, and finally many thousands Acts 21:20.Steve wrote:On that view, Christ's intercession for the generation that killed Him might be seen as postponing the judgment until they had, for the most part, died off.
By the way, I think your suggestion is a great one!
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
I`ve read accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgement for krisis. Not good news however you look at it.
I`m struck though by the short time span between the two statements of Jesus. He`s moved from one possible future scenario to a potentially very opposite one in those 3 days. Was there something he knew post-resurrection that he didn`t know pre-death?
Ian
According to Strong who was a traditional believer in eternal damnation "krisis" s/b translated as judging,judgment,decision,sentence,generally divine judgment,accusation.
So if you already believe in eternal damnation like the KJV translators did when they wrote their bible translation you will see "judgment" as damnation, but if you believe that God's mercy triumphs over judgment , then all things are possible.
I`m struck though by the short time span between the two statements of Jesus. He`s moved from one possible future scenario to a potentially very opposite one in those 3 days. Was there something he knew post-resurrection that he didn`t know pre-death?
Ian
According to Strong who was a traditional believer in eternal damnation "krisis" s/b translated as judging,judgment,decision,sentence,generally divine judgment,accusation.
So if you already believe in eternal damnation like the KJV translators did when they wrote their bible translation you will see "judgment" as damnation, but if you believe that God's mercy triumphs over judgment , then all things are possible.
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backwoodsman
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Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
Strong is often too concise to be of much use. Vincent says it's a judicial term and, quoting Morison, "determines, by itself, nothing at all concerning the nature, degree, or extent of the penalty to be endured." So it seems Mark 16:16 can't be used to support any particular view of the fate of unbelievers.steve7150 wrote:According to Strong who was a traditional believer in eternal damnation "krisis" s/b translated as judging,judgment,decision,sentence,generally divine judgment,accusation.
Re: Reconciling Luke 23: 34 with Mark 16:16
Thanks, backwoodsman. I won`t be heartbroken if that is indeed the case.So it seems Mark 16:16 can't be used to support any particular view of the fate of unbelievers.