Hebrews: An imperfect Christ?

Post by **_Allyn** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:12 pm

Amen Roger

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:09 am

Consider this: In all the conversion narratives we find in scripture, how much did the people need to know about the issue being debated before they were "added to those who are being saved"? Were they not converted and saved after hearing only one sermon? Is there any mention of the nature of the Trinity in any of the narratives?

John informs us that "...these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through His name." See John 20:30-31. The Ethiopian confessed "I believe Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God" and was saved. See Acts 8:37. Paul says "If you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and will believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved". Are these beliefs no longer adequate? After we are Christians awhile, are we required to get this creed thing down pat or we are suddenly lost?

I believe the scriptures reveal that what we must know is simple enough for those of low mental ability to be saved. Otherwise how are they to be saved?

Isaiah 35:8 : "...Whoever walks the road, although a fool, shall not go astray."

I say this as a trinitarian (small "t"). We have a bit too much speculation.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:40 pm

One of the posts mentioned "God the Son". Nowhere in scripture do we find the phrase "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

Rather, we find "God the Father", "the Son of God", "the spirit of God" and "the spirit of Jesus".

Post by **_Allyn** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:01 pm

God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit does not have to be said in those exact words when the concept has already been made perfectly clear. Is it possible in your mind Paidion, that God created Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Or is it that you believe that all three have been in exisitance since eternity past but have no other connection to one another except by eternal existance? Or how do you justify your concept of God?

Likewise, do you or do you not believe that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God? If not, then you believe that Jesus is a god or some created being by God? Was Jesus the Son with God before His virgin birth? Do you believe that Jesus is self-exisitant or is His exisitence dependent upon another god?

When God said; "Let us make man in our image..." then was it Jesus that spoke these words or was it some other god? Do you believe that Jesus is the creator of the universe?

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:33 pm

Is it possible in your mind Paidion, that God created Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

No.

Or is it that you believe that all three have been in exisitance since eternity past but have no other connection to one another except by eternal existance?

No.

Or how do you justify your concept of God?

I have already justified it scripturally and in accordance with early Christian teaching. I don't know what else you want.

Likewise, do you or do you not believe that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God?

I believe what the Scripture says in Greek.

I believe the Word was with the God. (Whenever "God" is preceded by the definite article, it refers to the Father). I believe also that "the Word was God" in the other sense of "God", that is, deity or divinity. Jesus was the only other one who was and is deity in that sense.
I know that John 1:1 does not say that Jesus was the God.

If not, then you believe that Jesus is a god or some created being by God?

Jesus was not "a god". By the use of the lower-case "g", then the suggestion i polytheism. There is only one GOD (in the sense that there is only one Deity, or order of Divine Being). No other deities exist except false deities. "The gods of the nations are demons."

However, Jesus was "a God" in the sense of Genesis 1:1, where it states
"Gods ("elohim" a plural word) created the heavens and the earth. Jesus shares the name "Yahweh" with His Father. In Genesis 3:1 "Yahweh Gods said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us...."

One of us! One of Them, would be the Father, and the other the Son.

Was Jesus the Son with God before His virgin birth?

Yes. "Before Abraham was, I am". He was with God since the beginning of time when He was begotten (NOT CREATED).

Do you believe that Jesus is self-exisitant or is His exisitence dependent upon another god?

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "self-existent". I believe that the Father begat Him at the begininning of time, and that there was no time at which He did not exist. That that make Hims "self-existent" or does His existance depend upon the Father? It's a difficult question, and I'm not sure that it even makes sense to try to ask it concerning the Son.

When God said; "Let us make man in our image..." then was it Jesus that spoke these words or was it some other god?

It was Elohim (Gods) who said that --- probably the Father talking to the Son.

Do you believe that Jesus is the creator of the universe?

Yes.

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:45 pm

If you believe Jesus is a God (thus concluding He is not The God) then how do you reconcile Is. 43:10; Is. 44:6-8; I Cor. 8:4-6; and Is. 45:5, 21-23?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:28 pm

One of the posts mentioned "God the Son". Nowhere in scripture do we find the phrase "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

Did'nt Jesus call himself "God the Son?"
"Good Teacher , what good thing shall i do that i may have eternal life?"
So He said to him, "why do you call Me good? No one is good but One that is God." Matt 19.16-17

We know that Jesus is good because He is sinless so either He is saying He is NOT GOOD or that He is God the Son or did i miss something?

Post by **_Blind Beggar** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:23 pm

Quote: "One of the posts mentioned 'God the Son.' Nowhere in scripture do we find the phrase 'God the Son' or 'God the Holy Spirit.'"

With all due respect, this is a straw man. Scripture doesn’t have to use an exact phrase or word for a truth to be taught and communicated.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:15 pm

With all due respect, this is a straw man.

My understanding of setting up a straw man is first presenting an argument that no one believes anyway, and then proceeding to demolish it. I don't think that I have done that.

Scripture doesn’t have to use an exact phrase or word for a truth to be taught and communicated.

It uses the exact phrase "God the Father".

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 pm

So He said to him, "why do you call Me good? No one is good but One that is God." Matt 19.16-17

Sorry to repeat myself but this does'nt leave anything to the imagination. Jesus is calling himself "God the Son" here.