Paul...the CHIEF SINNER???

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_AARONDISNEY
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Paul...the CHIEF SINNER???

Post by _AARONDISNEY » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:34 pm

I've noticed in the book of 1 Timothy Paul seems to refer to himself as a "sinner"....and worse yet, he calls himself the worst of sinner (or "chief" of sinners).


HERE'S THE VERSES.....1 Tim 1
12 ¶ And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, Acts 8.3 ; 9.4, 5 and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



I am at work right now and don't have the particular software I do at home, but if I remember correctly....I've looked up that Greek word in my Strong's and it says "AM" in that verse could be translated as "WAS". It would seem to make sense to me...I can't imagine that Paul would say he was currently the chiefest sinner...

Also from the context of referring to his past, I would assume he meant that he WAS the worst sinner he knew, that would be understandable.

I believe that this may have been a poor translation of this particular word. But I could be wrong.

I guess my question is - If you believe that Paul truly meant to say that he was currently the "Chief Sinner" - what did he mean by that? Did he mean that there were no sinners (saved or unsaved) worse than him?
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_mattrose
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Post by _mattrose » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:54 pm

If the translation is correct in the present tense, I'd still resonate with it in the following sense. The more and more we come to know God, the more and more we recognize how GREAT He truly is. And the more humble we become. I'd equate Paul's sense of sinfulness with a sense of humility

I remember reading once, and I don't know if it is true or verifiable, that Paul's description of himself got 'worse and worse,' so to speak, chronologically. In other words, the writer was saying this is the correct chronological order of Paul's writing

AD49 'An Apostle' (Galatians 1:1)
AD55 'Least of apostles' (1 Cor. 15:9)
AD60 'Least of God's people' (Ephesians 3:8)
AD64 'Chief of sinners' (1 Tim. 1:15)
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Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:00 pm

I guess my question is - If you believe that Paul truly meant to say that he was currently the "Chief Sinner" - what did he mean by that? Did he mean that there were no sinners (saved or unsaved) worse than him?

I think it's again a scenerio where we as westerners read literally and don't take into account the hyperbole used in that middle eastern culture which Paul was part of. He was probably emphasizing how wicked he was by saying he still is, yet saved by the grace of the Lord. Just a technique to emphasize the wickedness of man and the goodness of God IMO.
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:02 pm

The Greek uses the present tense, "I am",which is usually continuous in aspect. However, this does not mean that Paul regarded himself as one who continuously sinned. One can sometimes use the continuous tense to refer to that which occurred in the past. For example, if Joe Bloe has committed a murder in the past, most people will say, "Joe Bloe is a murderer." In saying this, people do not necessarily mean that Joe Bloe continues to commit murder as a practice. All they may mean is that Joe Bloe had committed a murder just once.

Yes, Paul said, "... Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost." He said this in the context of stating that he "formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted [Christ]." He did this by persecuting Christ's followers and having them imprisoned and killed. I think Paul believed that there no worse sin could be committed that this. I think if Paul had lived in our day, he probably would have said, "of whom I was foremost", which is more in keeping with the grammar of our day.

I don't think that Paul was falsely saying out of humility that he "is the foremost of sinners" in the ongoing sense. Indeed, to do so would have been a false humility. The following words do not, to the modern mind, appear have been spoken out of humility.

For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me. I Corinthians 4:15,16

Have you ever urged anyone to imitate you, because you are a good example of righteous living? Have you ever heard any other modern Christian do so?

In our modern day, we are so busy considering everyone, including ourselves, to be ongoing sinners, that we seem unable to accept that Christ does more than forgive our sin. He actually delivers us from sinful practice. Paul believed that Christ actually and practically delivers us.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither consorters with prostitutes, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual practitioners, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I Corinthians 6:9-11
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:49 am

Thank you guys.....Paidion, your post really seems to make sense as a conclusion to draw from this. You all have been helpful.
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Re: Paul...the CHIEF SINNER???

Post by 3Resurrections » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:18 pm

Bumping this up to the top in order to offer an interpretation of the word "CHIEF" that swings in a totally different direction than the previous comments...

The Greek word in this context is "protos", which carries the sense of being the "FIRST". Why should this sense be understood instead of Paul saying he was the "worst" sinner? Because the flow of the context says that Paul was "a PATTERN" for those who were "ABOUT TO BELIEVE". See the verse directly following Paul's claim in I Tim. 1:15 of being the "FIRST (chief) sinner". I Timothy 1:16 (KJV) says, "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy" (what was the cause for God's mercy?) "that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting" (Interlinear - "those being about to believe on Him..."). There is definitely a chronological time element going on here, not just an evaluation of the level of Paul's personal sinfulness compared to others.

In the first place, we need to understand just which category the word "sinners" is being applied to. In this passage, it is NOT referring generically to all of mankind, who have all committed sin. This label for "sinners" in I Tim. 1:15 is referring to GENTILES as opposed to the Jews. Paul's meaning was that Christ also came into the world to save - not only Jews - but Gentiles (sinners) as well. Paul called himself the "apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13), and here in this I Timothy context, he emphasizes that he is the "teacher of the Gentiles" in I Tim. 2:7; their apostle, and their preacher. God the Savior wanted "all men to be saved" (not just the Jews), "and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (I Tim. 2:4). The Jews generally regarded everyone outside of their nation as being termed a "sinner". Paul recognized this Jewish bias in Galatians 2:15; "We who are Jews by nature, and not SINNERS OF THE GENTILES..."

So, Paul in I Timothy 1:15-16 was grouping himself in the same category along with the Gentile "sinners" group, calling himself the FIRST of this "sinners" group who had obtained mercy from God, as a pattern for all the Gentiles who would be evangelized by his ministry after him. What this I Timothy 1:15 text tells us is exactly the point in time when the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy ended, with Christ "confirming the covenant with many" of Daniel's people, the Jews, up until the end of that 70th week (which lasted from the beginning of Christ's miraculous earthly ministry in AD 30 until AD 37).

What happened to close out that 70th week in AD 37 was Paul's trip to Jerusalem, when he fell into a trance in the temple and received his marching orders from God Himself in Acts 22:17-21: "Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem...Depart, for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles." This was God announcing the end of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. After this AD 37 year, under Paul's leadership as God's "chosen vessel", the gospel exploded into the Gentile world. Up until then, the emphasis had mainly concentrated on giving the Jews one last "week" of seven years to get on board with the New Covenant (which many did, who were called "the remnant"). This is why even Jesus Himself said He was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24), because at that time God intended to FIRST give the Jews a chance to convert to the New Covenant before He changed the evangelistic emphasis to openly embrace ALL nations.

Acts 13:46 re-emphasizes this transition point following the 70th week in AD 37. "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you, (necessary to fulfill the last 70th week of Daniel's prophecy), "but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, WE TURN UNTO THE GENTILES. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light to the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth." Paul said this in the early AD 40's to his fellow Jews who were still rejecting Christ's message. It shows us that both Paul and Barnabas acknowledged that God's previous command to Paul in the temple vision of AD 37 was being carried out by their ministering mainly to the Gentiles from then on.

Paul himself was not ethnically a Gentile. However, he identified so completely with them as being the "apostle to the Gentiles" that he gave himself the title of the "FIRST sinner" (not the "worst") of this believing Gentile category that sprang up after Daniel's 70th week had ended. Just like the Gentile "sinners" group, Paul had obtained mercy from God, even when he was alienated from faith in Christ to begin with, and had violently persecuted the church as its enemy.

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Re: Paul...the CHIEF SINNER???

Post by willowtree » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 pm

_STEVE7150 wrote:I guess my question is - If you believe that Paul truly meant to say that he was currently the "Chief Sinner" - what did he mean by that? Did he mean that there were no sinners (saved or unsaved) worse than him?



I think it's again a scenerio where we as westerners read literally and don't take into account the hyperbole used in that middle eastern culture which Paul was part of. He was probably emphasizing how wicked he was by saying he still is, yet saved by the grace of the Lord. Just a technique to emphasize the wickedness of man and the goodness of God IMO.
In his book Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes Dr. Kenneth Bailey discusses the statements made by Zacchaeus regarding his restitution and points out that Zacchaeus 'affirms his sincerity by exaggeration. If he does not exaggerate, the crowd will think he means the opposite.' I found this to be quite at odds with my Western thinking, where, to be taken seriously, I would expect to not exaggerate lest I sound to lack sincerity. Maybe there is something of that cultural custom in Paul's statement.
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

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