The Narrow Path Ministries

I just finished listening to Steve's Life of Christ lesson on Jesus' encounter with Nicodemus. Steve mentioned the textual variant at the end of John 3:13 and suggested that if it were removed it would remove the "challenge" in interpreting it as Jesus' words. However, as I read it, the problem remains.

Even without the variant ending ("which is in heaven"), the verse begins "no one has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven - the Son of Man..."

Doesn't the phrase imply that the Son of Man had already ascended into heaven? If so, then the same implication that the Son of Man had already ascended into heaven seems to remain even if the colocation is not required.

Am I missing something?

Do you mean how could he have ascended before he ascended? Or how could he be in heaven when he was not in heaven?

Jesus said, "Now I am no more in the world ... these things I speak in the world" (John 17:11-13)

If I understood your post right, then I think it's just a matter of using improper/non-literal verb tense. My guess is it could be dramatic effect, a way of expressing the intensity of these thoughts. Reminds me of "before Abraham was, I am." - Another improper/non-literal present tense.

Or maybe I totally misunderstood the topic.

The question is whether that verse is intended as John's commentary or as part of Jesus' comments to Nicodemus. If the latter, it is awkward, though less so if the phrase "who is in heaven" is omitted, as it is in some manuscripts. Darin is right, however, that even without that phrase, it sounds as if it is declaring that Jesus had already ascended, which makes it seem more like an explanatory comment from the author.

no it doesn''t sound like he asended like that before if you know he wouldn't do that and that ressareshktion is futurist

It is my opinion that these words are indeed John's commentary. No manuscript from before 300 A.D. contains the words "who is in heaven". Neither papyrus 66 (about 150 A.D.) or papyrus 75 (about 200 A.D.) contains the phrase. So it seems that John is affirming after Christ's ascension, that He is the only one ever to ascend to heaven. But the main thrust is that no one else had ascended to heaven up to that point. Neither Enoch nor Elijah had ascended into Heaven, the "dwelling place" of God. Yes, Elijah was taken up into the heavens (sky) but did not ascend to Heaven. Second century Christians taught that Enoch and Elijah were taken somewhere where their mortal bodies were preserved so that they never died, and that they will be the two witnesses who shall appear in the last days. Further implication of John's statement is that people after Christ's ascension did not ascend into Heaven when they died. This may still be the case to this day. They may have to await their resurrection before they go to Heaven.

I wonder whether John had in mind Proverbs 30 when he wrote John 3:13

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, his utterance. this man declared to Ithiel—to Ithiel and Ucal: surely I am more stupid than any man, and do not have the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom nor have knowledge of the holy one. Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? Proverbs 30:1-4

Paidion wrote:It is my opinion that these words are indeed John's commentary. No manuscript from before 300 A.D. contains the words "who is in heaven". Neither papyrus 66 (about 150 A.D.) or papyrus 75 (about 200 A.D.) contains the phrase. So it seems that John is affirming after Christ's ascension, that He is the only one ever to ascend to heaven. But the main thrust is that no one else had ascended to heaven up to that point. Neither Enoch nor Elijah had ascended into Heaven, the "dwelling place" of God. Yes, Elijah was taken up into the heavens (sky) but did not ascend to Heaven. Second century Christians taught that Enoch and Elijah were taken somewhere where their mortal bodies were preserved so that they never died, and that they will be the two witnesses who shall appear in the last days. Further implication of John's statement is that people after Christ's ascension did not ascend into Heaven when they died. This may still be the case to this day. They may have to await their resurrection before they go to Heaven.

I wonder whether John had in mind Proverbs 30 when he wrote John 3:13

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, his utterance. this man declared to Ithiel—to Ithiel and Ucal: surely I am more stupid than any man, and do not have the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom nor have knowledge of the holy one. Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? Proverbs 30:1-4

I wonder if the difference in the two words "ascend(ed)" and "taken" would reveal anything. Is it possible that a main point would be that Jesus ascended to heaven by His own will, and that any others need to be taken, or caught up, lacking any inherent ability to ascend on their own?

Hello all greetings;
I would like to share my insight in regards of this topic which has only few replies and ended not clearly if Jesus, the Son of man/God has ascended before he descended when he incarnated or the "Word" was made flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word is God.
v. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. v.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

As we all know God dwelt in heaven so, it is understood that the Word was with God in heaven. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 6:62 What if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before. ( this means
that it is irrelevant to say that he already has ascended before he ascended because he was there in the beginning before the creation.) emphasis mine.

If verses 13-21 are John the writer's commentary, the difficulty if removed. I am inclined to think that that is the case.