Joy in Suffering?

[mattrose]

I am currently teaching through the letter of James. The letter begins (after a brief greeting) with the famous line...

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance

This is, of course, consistent with the teachings of Paul & Peter

Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine

All 3 of them (James, Paul, Peter) seem to have taught this because Jesus taught it...

20 Looking at his disciples, he said:
“Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22 Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil,
because of the Son of Man.

My question is not the most obvious one (how can we have joy in the midst of suffering). I think all 4 passages make that clear enough. We can have joy amidst suffering b/c we know that anything God allows into our lives give us opportunity to depend more wholly on Him and, therefore, grow stronger in our faith (presently) and more prepared for the future.

My question has to do with finding the balance b/w this (seeing the value of hard-times) and the other emotions that go with difficulty (feeling that hard times stink). As I teach this principle that we can rejoice in our sufferings, I feel like the insights of James, Paul, Peter (based on Jesus' own teachings) are so strong that we shouldn't even get discouraged by trials.

Is it the case that we should ONLY rejoice in our sufferings?
Or is the NT teaching that we should rejoice IN ADDITION to being upset?

I do not know if I asked my questions well Maybe to put it in practical terms... If someone in my class loses their job and takes this passage seriously... should they actually be joyful at the opportunity afforded by difficulty?

[TK]

Great question!

If I am told that a close family member has been diagnosed with a dreaded disease, or if I lose my job, or my child gets in serious trouble, I think it would be "pretending" if I were to say that this wouldn't bother me. In other words, being emotional human beings, how could such things not sock in the gut where it hurts?

However, that being said, I believe that we are indeed to rejoice-- not because we feel like it but because we are commanded to do so.

We often hear of the "sacrifice of praise." Worshiping the Lord when I don't feel like it in my emotions is a sacrifice of praise. I believe that God honors this sacrifice.

Further, I believe that the reason we are told to rejoice, and to always give thanks in everything is because God knows that when we do this, our attitude shifts and our faith is strengthened. Negative thinking never helped anyone's faith. But when we are truly praising God in difficult circumstances, it gives faith an opportunity to rise up along with our ability to sense God's very real presence in our situation. In crisis, we need to focus on God's promises, not the problem.

To summarize, I believe that it is normal and not sinful to experience negative emotions when crisis hits. But, as followers of Jesus, we must move on to the next step fairly quickly. Getting mired in the negative is a dangerous place to be.

TK

[Suzana]

(I don't have much time now, as I need to leave for work soon, so I will just write down some very random thoughts):

- I'm wondering if there is any difference (without having time to study the context of all the verses on suffering) as to our attitude and/or response, according to the cause of the suffering?
i.e. in the example of Jesus, he said:
...blessed are you when men hate you,....because of the Son of Man.

- but Jesus also said “when they persecute you in one town, flee to the next” - so while they may rejoice that they are joining in with Jesus' suffering, they also are not expected to stay & revel in the circumstance if they can avoid it.

- Surely we can't rejoice in the resultant hardship to us or others, if we are suffering because of our own sins; but at least, upon repentance we can rejoice and be thankful for forgiveness being available.

On the other hand I know we are to give thanks in everything – I think I agree with TK's thoughts overall.

[mattrose]

I believe that we are indeed to rejoice-- not because we feel like it but because we are commanded to do so... when we do this, our attitude shifts and our faith is strengthened. Negative thinking never helped anyone's faith. But when we are truly praising God in difficult circumstances, it gives faith an opportunity to rise up along with our ability to sense God's very real presence in our situation. In crisis, we need to focus on God's promises, not the problem.

To summarize, I believe that it is normal and not sinful to experience negative emotions when crisis hits. But, as followers of Jesus, we must move on to the next step fairly quickly. Getting mired in the negative is a dangerous place to be.

Thanks for the feedback TK. I definitely resonate with the idea of recognizing that bad circumstances are indeed bad and THEN making a conscious decision to focus on the positive by saying that in-spite of these circumstances (or, maybe, because of them), my faith will be strengthened, and that is the most important thing of all.

So, perhaps my 2 options (above) should have been expanded to 3...

Is it the case that we should ONLY rejoice in our sufferings?
Or is the NT teaching that we should rejoice IN ADDITION to being upset?
OR is it the NT teaching that we should move quickly from being upset to rejoicing?

[mattrose]

- I'm wondering if there is any difference (without having time to study the context of all the verses on suffering) as to our attitude and/or response, according to the cause of the suffering?
i.e. in the example of Jesus, he said:
...blessed are you when men hate you,....because of the Son of Man.

I thought about that too. I heard some speaker recently make a big deal about that. But I think the principle would apply to any form of persecution/hardship. After all, whether a Christian loses their job b/c they are a Christian or b/c of the economy wouldn't seem to change the principle that the hardship of unemployment can teach one to more fully rely on God.

- but Jesus also said “when they persecute you in one town, flee to the next” - so while they may rejoice that they are joining in with Jesus' suffering, they also are not expected to stay & revel in the circumstance if they can avoid it.

Good point.

- Surely we can't rejoice in the resultant hardship to us or others, if we are suffering because of our own sins; but at least, upon repentance we can rejoice and be thankful for forgiveness being available.

Again, good point. We should neither create the hardship nor purposefully remain in it.[/quote]

[TK]

Matt wrote:

Is it the case that we should ONLY rejoice in our sufferings?
Or is the NT teaching that we should rejoice IN ADDITION to being upset?
OR is it the NT teaching that we should move quickly from being upset to rejoicing?

How about a fourth-- that we should rejoice IN SPITE OF our natural emotions? It's close to the same idea as rejoicing in addition to being upset, but with a slight difference.

TK

[steve7150]

I think Paul said the suffering we experience in this life is paltry compared with the eternal life we have with God.
So it may be the context of temporal suffering contrasted with eternal joy and whether we choose to put the kingdom of God first in our mind and heart or the suffering we experience in this life.

[steve]

Perhaps we should consider that grief and chagrin may belong to the category of our emotions, while the recommended rejoicing is a reference to our attitude. The latter is immediately under our control, while the former are not. If these are seen as separate categories, then they might co-exist simultaneously.

Emotions would seem to be visceral responses to factors external to ourselves, and are often involuntary (I think of certain occasions of fear, delight, or even anger). By contrast, our attitude arises from our focus and our convictions, which we choose because of internal motivations.

Not everyone at this forum shares my strong convictions about the sovereign providences of God, but according to my understanding, nothing can happen to me unless God at least allows it (since there is nothing He cannot prevent, except those things which His own nature compels Him to permit). Because of who He is, He will never allow afflictions and trials but for loving purposes—that is, to potentiate some good result.

A person who is in great emotional distress, due to environmental circumstances—like Joseph or Job or David or Paul—can nonetheless call upon his inner convictions to "rejoice in the Lord." Why? Not only because of the good results that we expect to enjoy as a result of our sufferings, but primarily from a disinterested love of our Master, from whom we receive whatever dealings may please Him.

Thus, Jesus sweat (as it were) great drops of blood, due to the emotional stress that was upon Him in the Garden of Gethsemane, but, because He recognized the sufferings as "the cup that my Father has given me", He could nonetheless choose the attitude described as His in Psalm 16:8-9 —

I have set the LORD always before me;
Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.

Thus, some years ago, when I was wrenched to the limit of my emotional endurance, due to the most protracted and agonizing trial of my life, I was able, at the same time, daily and sincerely to verbalize in my prayers my pleasure in the privilege of being God's slave and being able to offer up my sufferings to Him as a personal sacrifice. Some here may not be able to understand what I am talking about, and at least one of our correspondents here will think me naive for accepting such calamities as the will of my Father. Naive I may be, but I know of no other convictions that agree with those taught by Christ and the apostles, or that can provide the joy and the unbroken peace that surpasses understanding.

[mattrose]

I think this distinction b/w emotions and attitude is helpful. Thanks TK & Steve.

Lots of good feedback here. I feel better prepared for questions people in class may have. Thanks.

[steve7150]

and at least one of our correspondents here will think me naive for accepting such calamities as the will of my Father. Naive I may be, but I know of no other convictions that agree with those taught by Christ and the apostles, or that can provide the joy and the unbroken peace that surpasses understanding.
steve





Romans 8.20 reveals that "the creation was subjected to frustration , not by it's own choice but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from it's bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

I think Paul is saying that God does'nt simply allow evil but in fact created it (Isa 45.7) as a tool to ultimately liberate us from ourselves. I think we really learn by contrasts and experiencing evil is a necessary step in the process of learning good and as Jesus said "only God is good."