Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

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mikew
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Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by mikew » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:18 am

In a recent response on Romans, I mentioned about the 2 Sam 12:1-9 technique used in Romans 1-2. This technique is basically where Nathan presented a story of a rich man with many many flocks and herds yet took the special lamb of another man. As the story goes, the rich man took the lamb of that other man. King David pronounced a judgment on that rich man. And Nathan then said "that man is you." This story was to lead David into repentance.

So I mentioned the quick rundown of Rom 1:18 to 2:2
The quick idea here is that Paul has written to an audience he anticipated to be reluctant to read his letter. So he included some sections that appear to judge Jews. This appearance is influenced by the audience's bias against Jews. So the "them" of 1:18-32 was seen to be Jews. The rebuke of 2:1 then was against gentiles along the type of trap Nathan used with David (2Sam12:1-9)
No one mentioned that Steve Gregg has been teaching that 2Sam12:1-9 technique was being used in Romans. I just heard part of the lecture on Rom 2:1-12 that addressed this. Only a few commentators, that I noticed (i.e. Stowers and Sanday and Headlam) have made reference to 2Sam12 but without much elaboration. Steve also pointed out that 1:18-32 was unspecific (or silent) about the specific 'society' that was being addressed in 1:18-32.

I'm glad to see that someone else has noticed the technique Paul used. It is interesting how this technique had roughly been noticed before but that no one seemed to find any significance to his use of such technique.

I do have to clarify that Steve still has interpreted the overall scenario differently in that he ascribes the Jews as being the momentary subsection of the audience that Paul was thought to be addressing in Rom 1:18 to 2:2.

I am wondering both when this recording was made (so I can give fuller credits) and when Steve discovered the significance of this technique.

Regards,

Mike.

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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by steve » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:52 am

Hi Mike,

I am not sure what year those recordings were made. They were taught at the original Great Commission School in McMinnville, Oregon, which closed down in 1999. My guess would be that the recordings are from about 1997. As for the question of when I began to see Romans 1 and 2 in that manner, it came gradually. I have never, to date, encountered a commentary that agreed with me (but, then, my reading of commentaries is relatively limited), and I had assumed, when I saw your noting it in a post earlier, that you might have gotten it from my lectures.

I believe it was in the late 1970s or early 1980s that I first began to observe that Romans 1 was unusually weighted with Old Testament allusions, and that they all seemed to point to the Jews being the subject of the chapter. In about 1985, a passing comment from a friend in conversation caused me to suspect that Romans, like most epistles, was an "occasional document" (i.e., occasioned by circumstancing requiring Paul's correction) and that Paul wrote it intending to address some problem in the Church at Rome. I had previously been taught that it was written as an impersonal doctrinal treatise.

I began to notice that there were a large number of hints in the book that there was tension in the Church at Rome between the Jewish and Gentile elements (e.g. 2:8-11, 17-20; 3:1, 9; chs.9-11; 14:1-6; etc.). Many of these passages give the impression that the Jewish Christians thought themselves better than the Gentile Christians, strictly on the basis of their ancestry and circumcision. One of Paul's main themes in Romans seemed to be that being Jewish, by itself, confers no special virtue or status with God. Romans 1 was a recap of the Jews' history showing that they were equally guilty of every abomination that the Gentiles practiced.

The final step in my reasoning came, probably in the mid-1980s, when I noticed that Paul seemed to have snapped the trap in Romans 2:1 as Nathan had done with David, and as Jesus did with the Jews in His parable of the vinedressers (Matt.21:40-43). I thought is was a profound insight at the time, since I was and am not aware of anyone else teaching it, but I have been teaching it so long now, that I sometimes forget how novel it was when I first saw it.

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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by mikew » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:41 pm

Thanks Steve. I am interested in knowledge itself but additionally it is interesting to see how ideas form.

Sanday and Headlam's commentary mentions Nathan's discussion with David on page 54.
books.google.com/sandayandheadlam etc..

However, it seems that most people after the original reading of the letter would miss the impact of Paul's approach. But when the details are explained, people can catch on to the impact.

I realized the connection with 2Sam12:1-9 when I was backtracking to find out the context for Rom 10. When I reached 2:1-2 (being aware of the powerful preaching in 1:18-32), I got stuck trying to think why Paul was suddenly making an accusation against the audience. It was out of the blue. There was nothing in Rom 1 to suggest that Paul was going to address anything about the audience. This certainly was effective for getting the attention of a hostile audience.

I'm having trouble to this time remembering how I realized the audience was solely gentile. I probably realized that from the negative discussion about Jews that seemed to be made in 2:17-29. But after this discovery of both the nature of the audience and of the 2Sam12 technique (in 2006 or 2007), more and more pieces of the letter finally began to make sense.

I found an article by Walter Russell,III on the division between Jews and gentiles and confirmed with Russell that this division was only realized in recent scholarship. So I verified that new things could be learned about Romans (and scripture in general).


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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by Tychicus » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:37 am

Hi Guys,

The connection of Rom 2:1 to Nathan's rebuke is also mentioned in Dunn's 1988 commentary on Romans, p. 79. He refers to Sanday/Headlam.

He offers a few possibilities for the "David", but comments: "But the degree to which 1:18-32 echoes Hellenistic Jewish polemic against idolatry and its outworkings confirms that it is probably a Jewish interlocutor whom Paul has primarily in mind (so most commentators today) . . .". He concludes, though, that the argument could cut across a "more clear-cut ethnically determined Jew/Gentile distinction."

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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by mikew » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:45 pm

Tychicus wrote:Hi Guys,

The connection of Rom 2:1 to Nathan's rebuke is also mentioned in Dunn's 1988 commentary on Romans, p. 79. He refers to Sanday/Headlam.

He offers a few possibilities for the "David", but comments: "But the degree to which 1:18-32 echoes Hellenistic Jewish polemic against idolatry and its outworkings confirms that it is probably a Jewish interlocutor whom Paul has primarily in mind (so most commentators today) . . .". He concludes, though, that the argument could cut across a "more clear-cut ethnically determined Jew/Gentile distinction."
ah interesting. So what do you think of Dunn's analysis?
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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by Tychicus » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:07 am

I tend to agree with Dunn on this point. A strict, ethnocentric Jew could make this argument, overlooking/downplaying the seriousness of his own people's failures. As it looks to me, Paul's rebuke is in 2:1-5 and then picked up later in 2:17-24 and 3:9-18. The resolution is in 3:21-31 and then revisited in parts of chapters 9-11. The rebuke, of course, is only against that form of ethnocentric Jewish teaching, not against all Jews in the church at Rome.

I gather you think the rebuke is against Gentiles. I'm not sure how the logic of the letter holds together under that assumption. If you could give a quick summary it would be helpful.

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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by mikew » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Tychicus wrote:I tend to agree with Dunn on this point. A strict, ethnocentric Jew could make this argument, overlooking/downplaying the seriousness of his own people's failures. As it looks to me, Paul's rebuke is in 2:1-5 and then picked up later in 2:17-24 and 3:9-18. The resolution is in 3:21-31 and then revisited in parts of chapters 9-11. The rebuke, of course, is only against that form of ethnocentric Jewish teaching, not against all Jews in the church at Rome.

I gather you think the rebuke is against Gentiles. I'm not sure how the logic of the letter holds together under that assumption. If you could give a quick summary it would be helpful.
Actually the text was ostensibly about Jews. However the judgmental aspect of 1:18-32 essentially was designed to expose the judgmental heart of Paul's audience. I present this idea with the idea that the text was written solely to gentiles in order to promote a benevolent attitude about Jews. But such an interpretation does not simply replace the content of commentaries regarding Rom 1 and 2. Instead, the whole letter must be recognized in a new light. Many themes raised within scholarship since around the 70s must take the forefront; the older familiar theme of works-vs-faith merely is a tool to correct an inclination of the audience to pursue the rite of circumcision.
The section from 2:3-16 was to show the gentiles that God was impartial in his judgment between Jews and gentiles. Such discussion begins by holding his audience's feet over the fire in vv 3-6 ... allowing his audience to get a bit nervous after the repentance-inspiring approach of 1:18-2:2.
Then in 2:17-24 Paul has addressed the empty chairs in the room ... where the Jews should be sitting among the gentiles. The wording "you who is named a Jew" then is Paul's method of allowing his gentile audience again to reveal its bias against Jews. Also, 2:17-29 acts as a subtle introduction to the problematic encounters between his audience and some non-believing Jews who made slurs against Paul and the gospel, in Rom 3:3-8 (to which Paul gives short answers to relieve some tensions in the audience) . Then the argument of 3:9-30 is designed to remove any grounds for the gentile audience to yield to the preaching of the outsider Jews boasters -- who said that circumcision (and other works of the law) were required for justification.

We therefore see that the issues of 'inclusion of gentiles' and 'ethnocentrism' represent, to some degree, misconstrued analysis of the text. Well, to some degree, these are accurate. The Jewish boasters, who are the implied rabble-rousers, could be perceived to be promoting ethnocentrism -- but this argument might be a bit weak if based on Romans alone (i.e. it would be weak within framework that I am proposing is proper reading of Romans). Then the 'inclusion of gentiles' (in Rom 3:29-30) is a message to the gentiles addressing their sense of inclusion into the fuller Judaism via the participation through the Messianic sect. In effect Paul was telling the gentiles that circumcision (and other works of the law) was designated for Jews and that gentiles did not have to become like Jews in order to have God be inclusive of gentiles.

As you probably can see, many commonly held interpretational points are challenged by such a reading influenced by the evidence that the audience was solely gentile.
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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by Tychicus » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:46 am

I present this idea with the idea that the text was written solely to gentiles in order to promote a benevolent attitude about Jews. But such an interpretation does not simply replace the content of commentaries regarding Rom 1 and 2. Instead, the whole letter must be recognized in a new light.
I am curious what motivates you to take such a radical view.
Many themes raised within scholarship since around the 70s must take the forefront; the older familiar theme of works-vs-faith merely is a tool to correct an inclination of the audience to pursue the rite of circumcision.
If by the "older familiar theme of works-vs-faith" you are referring to the Protestant Reformation ideas of Luther and Calvin, then yes, I agree with those more recent scholars (e.g. Dunn, Wright) who think Luther's view needs to be reexamined.
As you probably can see, many commonly held interpretational points are challenged by such a reading influenced by the evidence that the audience was solely gentile.
What is the evidence that the audience was solely gentile? Paul certainly expected the audience to have a good knowledge of the Old Testament prophets, and he mentions some Jews by name, e.g. Priscilla and Aquila.

I can see where chapter 11 was written primarily to gentiles (see 11:13) partially "in order to promote a benevolent attitude about Jews". But how can you get from there to saying the whole book was written to gentiles?

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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by mikew » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:37 pm

Tychicus wrote: I am curious what motivates you to take such a radical view.
Are you asking why there has been misunderstanding of Romans over the years or are you asking how the clues accumulated over the years (by the scholars) have now begun to point to a clearer understanding of Romans?
I had begun reading Romans on my own. It was around 2003 or 2004 that I recognized the Jew-gentile conflict. I verified with Walter Russell, III, that this was a recent discovery. And by 2007 I had realized that the approach by Paul seemed to pinpoint that he was addressing a gentile audience. Das then was publishing his book "Solving the Romans Debate" which presented his initial argument for a gentile audience. Das' mentor, Paul Achtemeier, had come to this conclusion earlier. Stowers also had come to such a determination but his book , A Rereading of Romans, proposes an unusual idea that the focus of Romans was on Self-Mastery.
So I am basically just coming to some conclusions about Romans based on ideas being proposed by respectable scholars. Das
If by the "older familiar theme of works-vs-faith" you are referring to the Protestant Reformation ideas of Luther and Calvin, then yes, I agree with those more recent scholars (e.g. Dunn, Wright) who think Luther's view needs to be reexamined.
Then why are you asking any questions why anyone would take a radicalized view? Either the issues of Romans have been settled or they haven't. This is the reason why people have kept proposing different readings of Romans.
Sanders stirred the waters. From that Wright and Dunn have sought interpretations of Romans which sought a view of the works-vs-flesh issue as if these were not truly polar opposites. I sort of see Wright as taking on an apologetics mode in his theology -- trying to defend Christianity as if Sanders' was completely right. Sanders was not fully correct. But Sanders' main influence was to remove some of the anti-Jewish bias passed via historic theology.

I see the works-vs-faith issue somewhat along the interpretation of the Luther/Calvin, however I found (through D Campbell's Deliverance of God) many points of the traditional 'justification' model as inaccurate.
The problem with all the readings of Romans is that the commentators have not even followed obvious structures in the text (plus the emotional approach taken by Paul) such that a proper determination of the flow and context of Romans could be made. Most importantly, Paul's rhetorical approach was so subtle that we were not able to detect the problems which Paul was seeking to correct.
What is the evidence that the audience was solely gentile? Paul certainly expected the audience to have a good knowledge of the Old Testament prophets, and he mentions some Jews by name, e.g. Priscilla and Aquila.

I can see where chapter 11 was written primarily to gentiles (see 11:13) partially "in order to promote a benevolent attitude about Jews". But how can you get from there to saying the whole book was written to gentiles?
First it must be clarified that there were both gentile and Jewish believers in Rome. Paul, however, was trying to convince the dominating gentile faction into accepting Jews into common fellowship. As such, he wrote to the gentiles in Rome.

Stowers asks your question in reverse. He basically asks where in the text do we find a specific address to the Jews after Paul has introduced himself as an apostle to the gentiles (however I may not be representing Stowers view properly in all detail here). I would suggest reading Das' Solving the Romans Debate chapter 2.

Das (Sep JSNT 2011) mainly addresses the evidence of a gentile audience in Rom 15 also notes on pg 104:
Likewise in Rom. 1.13 Paul writes: ‘I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers and sisters, that I often planned to come to you (but was prevented until now), in order that I may reap some fruit among you just as I have also among the rest of the gentiles’. Paul refers to ‘the rest’ of the gentiles in relation to his Roman audience.
You can see some of his latest discussion starting on page 29 of the book at this link
Reading Paul's Letter to the Romans

Basically what is important is that we read the letter in its proper context. If people have mistakenly read the letter as if the issues were addressed to Jews, then we end up with a series of misconception about Paul's purpose.

Regarding the required knowledge of scripture, Paul's placement of scripture quotes basically is such that the facial meaning of the text is sufficient to communicate Paul's points. Sometimes Paul is essentially relying on the 'testimony' of scripture (i.e. in 3:10-18) and sometimes he is speaking of prophecy which is relevant. However, all of Paul's use of scripture can be comprehended by a gentile audience -- especially, as in Rome, where many of the original gentile believers had begun their 'Christian' life within the synagogue. Only the basic accounts of Abraham, Genesis, David and a few others were needed for the audience to comprehend the letter. The main reason that commentators have been led to expect deeper understanding of scripture then has been due to the improper determination of the flow and context of Romans.

I looked quickly atGarlington's review of Das' Solving the Romans debate and I didn't see any problem in answering the issues raised by Garlington. Maybe Garlington can be converted.

The ultimate goals is to find out the true context of Romans. I think I can quite sufficiently prove that the contextual recreation is correct when we look at Romans as being addressed to a Romans audience.
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Re: Use of 2Sam12:1-9 technique in Romans 1-2

Post by Tychicus » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:09 am

If by the "older familiar theme of works-vs-faith" you are referring to the Protestant Reformation ideas of Luther and Calvin, then yes, I agree with those more recent scholars (e.g. Dunn, Wright) who think Luther's view needs to be reexamined.
Then why are you asking any questions why anyone would take a radicalized view? Either the issues of Romans have been settled or they haven't. This is the reason why people have kept proposing different readings of Romans.
Sanders stirred the waters. From that Wright and Dunn have sought interpretations of Romans which sought a view of the works-vs-flesh issue as if these were not truly polar opposites.
Sorry, I was not familiar with Das, and considered the "Gentile-only audience" view radical since I never heard of it before, and because it seems counter-intuitive given the numerous references in the book to Jews and OT Scriptures, etc. I am not against anyone proposing different readings of Romans; it just seems there should be a compelling reason for proposing such a new view.
What is the evidence that the audience was solely gentile? Paul certainly expected the audience to have a good knowledge of the Old Testament prophets, and he mentions some Jews by name, e.g. Priscilla and Aquila.

I can see where chapter 11 was written primarily to gentiles (see 11:13) partially "in order to promote a benevolent attitude about Jews". But how can you get from there to saying the whole book was written to gentiles?
First it must be clarified that there were both gentile and Jewish believers in Rome. Paul, however, was trying to convince the dominating gentile faction into accepting Jews into common fellowship. As such, he wrote to the gentiles in Rome.
So, if there were Jewish believers in Rome is there any reason Paul wouldn't want them to see the letter too? It would be totally applicable to any Jew who might be tempted to follow the ethnocentric Jewish view expressed in Rom 2:17-24, etc. In fact most of the letter would seem applicable to all believers, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (or you can reverse the last phrase if you like).
You can see some of his [Das's] latest discussion starting on page 29 of the book at this link . . .
This reference is very helpful, as is the later reference to Garlington's review.
Basically what is important is that we read the letter in its proper context. If people have mistakenly read the letter as if the issues were addressed to Jews, then we end up with a series of misconception about Paul's purpose.
I agree that Romans were not "addressed to Jews". It would be a mistake to think Paul meant it this way. I also agree that the typical Jewish member of the congregation did not think as the Jew referred to in 2:17; however church members, Jew or gentile, could be influenced by such a person.

In my view, one of Paul's major reasons for writing the letter was to present an interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures that stressed the universal, non ethnic, view of the People of God, now that the Messiah has come; very different from the ethnocentric view taught by the 2:17 Jew.

In general I suspect our views on Romans could be quite similar, despite the surface disagreement.

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