The Narrow Path Ministries

I am reading through Hebrews these days and have found an idea, apparently, that I have never heard taught anywhere and am not sure what to do with. I'm hoping someone here can offer some insight.

After saying that Jesus is ALL and EVERYTHING - "through whom [God] made the universe...the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word" (Heb. 1:2-3)

There are several verses that say or imply that Christ was still in the process of perfection - that he became perfect.

Heb. 1:4 - So he becameas much superior to the angels...

Heb. 2:10 - ...should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Heb. 5:8 - he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation.

If Jesus was made perfect through suffering, was he somehow imperfect before the suffering? Would the Christ child have been an insufficient sacrifice for our sins? Was he NOT as much superior to the angels before the Cross?

Is this just never taught because it comes so close to gnosticism - though ch. 1 effectively silences the gnostic argument?

Interested in any thoughts,

tg

I interpret it to be saying that Jesus became perfect FOR THE ROLE of Savior through His suffering. The incarnation & passion made Him a sympathetic High Priest.

was he somehow imperfect before the suffering? Would the Christ child have been an insufficient sacrifice for our sins?

In a way, yes, He was imperfect for the role of Savior prior to the passion b/c the Father's will included salvation via a perfect sacrifice.

Is this just never taught because it comes so close to gnosticism - though ch. 1 effectively silences the gnostic argument?

I've not really seen the passage avoided. I just taught through these verses last month and we discussed the issue openly.

Others probably have better or more carefully worded insights.

God bless,
matthew

In Hebrews 2:10 the word perfect is a translation of the Greek word teleioo which could also be translated complete or finish.
Jesus had to go to the cross to be complete as savior.

I may be wrong in this, and maybe someone will post different, but I have always taken this Hebrews text to answer the 1 Corinthians chapter 13 question as to what or who the perfect is.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Here is where I think the confusion lies:

In modern parlance, "perfection" means "flawless". That isn't what was meant in scripture by the word. Jesus was always flawless. He never committed a sin. But this isn't because He was incapable of sinning. He was a true human being. When He became human, He divested Himself of His divine attributes. The only thing He retained was His identity. In every other respect He had to depend upon His Father. Of Himself, He could do nothing. The Father worked through Him --- including all the miracles He performed.

He had to LEARN obedience. He was tempted to sin in every way that we are. He had to refuse sin or every occasion ---- and He did.

As has been pointed out, "perfection" is equivalent to "completion". If someone is in the process of completing a house, though the house may be flawless, it is not yet finished or completed or perfected. When Jesus was made perfect, and when He was raised from death, He was "the first-born among many brethren". We need to be perfected too, as we are in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. But "He who began a good work in us will work to complete it at the day of Jesus Christ". When Jesus returns, the overcomers will be raised from death, and Jesus will put the finishing touches on the salvation process. Thus they will become "brethren of Christ".

It casts an interesting and different (for me) light on things to think of Christ in process - the process of perfection, or completion, of becoming the perfect sacrifice, of learning obedience and experiencing suffering.

It means that the purpose of his 33 years on earth were more than just to teach us and be our example -they were a journey, a process in which he became perfectly (completely) human and thus the perfect sacrifice.

It makes me want to go back through the gospels and looks for moments, decisions, etc., in which he is pursuing learning - when he is doing something not for the sake of the people around him, but for the sake of his own process and completion.

And the moment when he decides to walk into his own death - to go to Jerusalem for passover, knowing they are waiting there to kill him - he says, "It is time." I guess that means "I am ready."

Fascinating.

...a process in which he became perfectly (completely) human

Actually, He was born completely human. The only thing He retained of His pre-existence was His identity.

The process was His growth as a human being. He is called "the second Adam" (the Second Man) because, unlike the first Adam (the first man), He always chose the right, and never chose to sin. He always sought His Father's will.

When He was a baby, He probably was unaware of who He was. He was like any other baby. He wet his diapers (or the equivalent) and He cried like any other baby (in spite of the Xmas carol that states otherwise).
He had to learn to walk with the Father. He had to learn who He was as He grew. He had to learn how to deny Himself, and submit to the Father's will constantly. Finally, through the process of growth, physical, mental, and spiritual, He became the kind of human that God intended. God also intended it for all of His disciples. Thus God's intention for the true disciple is to "be conformed to the image of Christ". This will finally happen to His disciples in the resurrection, and they will be like Christ, completed brethren of Christ, of whom Jesus Himself was the firstborn.

That will be the day when we are truly "born again". Now we are merely "regenerated" or "generated again" or "begotten again". In other words, our spiritual conception has taken place, and we are beginning to grow in the spiritual "womb". The new birth will take place at the ressurection of the overcomers (the first resurrection).

Just thinking out loud here and my comments may seem random so bear with me.
Paidion said:

He had to learn how to deny Himself, and submit to the Father's will constantly.

I don't think Jesus had to learn obiedience but rather it was already in Him to want to obey, so He did. He chose obiedience over giving in to temptation. I think if one learns righteousness it comes from first experiencing unrighteousness or having success. there's a 50/50 chance we will fail or succeed. On the other hand, by only doing what God has for us to do and only that, then success is guaranteed. Jesus, I believe, was not faced with experiencing trial and error as the rest of us. His devine nature certainly was not crippled by being fully human and thus His nature was to do God's will only. He in effect He died to Himself and lived for God.

I don't think Jesus had to learn obiedience but rather it was already in Him to want to obey, so He did.

Does not the writer of Hebrews say He "learned obedience"?

Hebrews 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;

You are right, Allyn, that we often learn from our failures and mistakes. Notwithstanding, we can also learn in other ways.

If one went slowly enough, and were bright enough, and careful enough, t would it not be possible to learn how to add without making an error?

In the case of Jesus, if He were always walking with His Father, listening to His voice, and choosing to obey on each and every occasion, would He not be "learning obedience".

I am not sure that "through what he suffered" refers only to His suffering on the cross. It may also refer to other suffering He underwent as He lived His Godly life.

If one went slowly enough, and were bright enough, and careful enough, t would it not be possible to learn how to add without making an error?

We must know that His perfect teacher was the Father, but His heart was to always serve the Father. The concept of learning without mistakes is a foreign thing for me, and always has been. To not be able to add 2 plus 2 from the start is not a sin but to give into the temptation of copying off the persons paper next to you would be. So does one learn to sin or is it something we choose to do? Its probably a little bit of both but we must be inclined or bent in the direction to start with I think.