Rev 20:11-15

[Guest]

Steve,

I just finished listening to your fourth lecture (ESC-04) in your eschatology series on Revelation Chapter 20. This is full of excellent teaching. In this lesson you talk about the first resurrection and the second death saying that those who have two resurrections have only one death but those suffer two deaths have only one resurrection. I agree. You also mention that those souls (Rev 20:4) who were "beheaded" lived on - that even though their bodies died, their souls lived on and that the second death had no power on them. Notice that they lived as kings and priests during the thousand year reign, which, as you point out, is the age between Christ's first coming and his second coming.

I would like to draw a parallel to the words of Jesus when he separates the sheep and the goats. He says,

Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal (age enduring) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (age enduring) life."

In Rev 20:4 the souls lived on during the age of Christ's reign. In other words they received "age enduring life".

Now, to continue this thought, I would like to suggest that the casting into the lake of fire (the second death) happens during the reign of Christ also, and would be equivalent to saying, "age enduring punishment", because at the end of this age everyone is resurrected and death is swallowed up in victory.

In this way of thinking, the unrighteous will have received the punishment for their disbelief so that when the resurrection happens then "all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22), and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28 ).

This fits very well with John 3:16. When someone's body dies, his soul either goes to be with Christ (eternal life), or his soul is cast into the lake of fire (perishes).

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

I am trying to wrap my mind around the concepts you are suggesting. I am not sure if your most recent post represents an advance in your thinking (and a modification) of that in the previous post (since there are two in a row), or if the second of the two posts is simply continuing the thought of the first. Perhaps my mind is just foggy. I haven't been up that long.

As I understand your final post, it stands as an argument for universalism. The "age" associated with the "age-abiding" punishment of sinners is the "church age"—or whatever portion of it is left at the time of the unbeliever's death. This is the tenure of the punishment of those who have been cast into the lake of fire, which occurred at the time of their physical deaths.

During the same period (age), believers who have died are alive in heaven. Then, when Jesus returns, all the age-abiding consequences experienced by the saved and the lost have reached their end (at the end of "the age"); sin has then been adequately punished, and all may be resurrected and received unto God.

If this is your position, then I can see your rationale, but am not able to embrace your conclusion at my present state of understanding. I believe that Jesus' words in John 5:28-29 speak of the future resurrection (at the second coming of Christ), and indicate that some will be resurrected to condemnation at that time.

That "the dead" are judged does not have to mean that they are judged without first being brought back to life. "The dead" can mean "those who are currently dead." "Those who are now dead shall [upon being resurrected] be judged..."

This is also how I understand the meaning of "dead" in 1 Peter 4:6, where is says, "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are [now] dead..."

The exact nature of the state of the dead—especially the unbelieving dead—is, as I have said elsewhere, not a matter about which I feel I can speak with certainty.

I do believe that Christians who die do consciously find themselves immediately in the presence of Christ, and that it is their reigning with Him in this intermediate state (between death and resurrection) that is depicted in Revelation 20:4-5.

As for the unbelievers, I consider it to be likely (though I am not certain) that they are without life or consciousness in the same intermediate period. I am not presently of the view that they are immediately cast into the lake of fire upon their demise, but, rather, I see the Great White Throne Judgment as a future event to occur at the coming of Christ. I consider it to be the same event described by Jesus in the parable of the sheep and the goats, in Matt.25:31ff.

In such matters, however, I have learned to avoid being too sure of my present state of understanding—which, as we all know, is "in part."

[Guest]

Steve,

First of all, let me say thank you for answering my post. I have a lot of confidence in your opinion on matters of biblical teaching.

Steve said,

I am not sure if your most recent post represents an advance in your thinking (and a modification) of that in the previous post (since there are two in a row), or if the second of the two posts is simply continuing the thought of the first.

Actually, my second post was meant to clarify my previous post. In my effort not to be too wordy I think perhaps I may not explain myself well enough. However, the second and third paragraphs in your post do correctly restate my argument. And yes, it is a universalist position. After much study and meditation over the last six months I find it very hard to believe any longer in the orthodox teaching about hell. I am now trying to determine exactly what I do believe in trying to harmonize the scriptures about judgment, punishment and the resurrection of the dead.

To further explain my current thinking.....

It seems reasonable to me that if believers are judged worthy of being immediately in the presence of Christ upon death, that unbelievers would be judged also upon death. I don't see why the "Judgment seat of Christ" or the "Great white throne judgement" cannot be set up now and functioning down the stream of time. This still leaves room for a final judgement when Christ returns because those who are alive and remain unto the coming of Christ have not yet been judged. When Christ returns, those unbelievers who are still living will be destroyed by the presence of his coming and the burning of the elements.

2 Pet 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

So, those who are dead are judged at the time of their death, and those who are still alive when he returns will be judged at his coming (Rev 20:9).

I see it this way, the enemy of Christ is the sinful flesh. Paul, speaking of Baptism said,

Rom 6:6-7
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

So we see that the "old man" must die so that "the body of sin might be destroyed." For the unbeliever this is accomplished through death itself (Rom 6:23). Christ must reign until all his enemies have been destroyed, which is finished at his coming. Then the resurrection can take place in which he destroys death itself. The "old man" (body of sin) of each believer and unbeliever now being destroyed leaves only righteousness in the new creation of the glorified, imperishable bodies.

When the devil is cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:10 signifies the end of everything that was evil and sinful.

I do realize that John 5:28-29 does present a difficulty for this line of thinking. I do have a possible explanation. Jesus talks about the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of condemnation." Notice that he does not say "resurrection to be condemned." Think of it this way...

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Condemnation took place much earlier than the resurrection and the unbeliever has already suffered for it in the lake of fire (according to my reasoning). Therefore, in John 5:28-29, Jesus is mearly pointing out that, in the resurrection, there will be a difference of status for those who were believers and those who were unbelievers in thier lives. Perhaps it is all a matter of heavenly rewards or perhaps different responsibilities.

There is also another possible explanation for John 5:28-29. Jesus may have simply been saying the same thing as Paul in Acts 24:15, that the resurrection will include both the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Anyway, I will continue to study, and I do appreciate any critique you can provide.

Todd