The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:35 pm

How often have you hear it from “Fundamentalists”?

“You can't get to heaven by good works!” They then quote Ephesians 2:8,9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(NKJV)

They presume that this speaks of salvation from Hell fire. But the context shows that it refers to salvation from sin, that is, from wrongdoing in your life.

This becomes clear from verse 10 that follows:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This shows that we cannot live righteously merely through self-effort. We cannot live a consistent righteous life by trying to do good things. Rather, we are being saved from wrongdoing by the enabling grace of Christ.

The passage is not speaking of the after-life at all. However, Jesus did speak of the future resurrection resulting in life for those who have done good, and judgment for those who have done evil:

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (John 5: 28, 29)

So it appears that Jesus taught that our eternal destiny depends upon whether we have lived good lives or evil ones.

I welcome your comments
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by darinhouston » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:01 am

Paul seemed to think there was some bit of what you "do" that bears on your eternal fate... Maybe just to prevent hardening of the heart that can lead to rejection of Christ, but it's not entirely clear what he meant.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that all the runners in a stadium compete, but only one receives the prize? So run to win. 25 Each competitor must exercise self-control in everything. They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.

26 So I do not run uncertainly or box like one who hits only air. 27 Instead I subdue my body and make it my slave, so that after preaching to others I myself will not be disqualified.

steve7150
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by steve7150 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:41 pm

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


It sounds like instead of being saved by faith in Christ that instead the death of Christ has cancelled out the "through one man's death sin came into the world and death came to every man." In other words Christ's death cancelled the curse or negative impact of Adam's sin and given us an opportunity for salvation if we combine faith into a life of good works. Of course everyone does both good and evil so we are judged by our works , whatever it is this entails.

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Homer
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Homer » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:11 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

So it appears that Jesus taught that our eternal destiny depends upon whether we have lived good lives or evil ones.

Would you say that the "good Lives" we live will be evidentiary or salvific? Are the good lives evidence of an abstract state such as faith? The way I see it there is no way to determine whether an abstract condition exists other than the objective (outward) results produced.

There are no doubt those who reject Christ who live better lives than some Christians. Are they saved? And what of the person who has lived a wicked life, repents and is baptized and then dies in an accident on his way home from his baptism. On what basis will he be saved or lost?

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Paidion
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:58 am

Here is the context of Jesus' words (John 5:24-29 ESV)

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Homer
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:23 am

Hi Paidion,

You have avoided the questions. We can all see what the scriptures say, that is the easy part. Regarding faith and works, what do they mean?

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Paidion
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:18 pm

Two contrary interpretations expressed by two different persons don't help in the pursuit of truth. Doing that divides people and usually each person remains adamant in his own interpretation, and unity in the Body of Christ is not promoted.

Quoting Scripture within context often results in people thinking more deeply about its meaning.

As for your question, "On what basis is a person saved or lost?" to deal with this question there would have to be a common understanding of the words "saved" or "lost". Saved from what? Saved from wrongdoing? This is a life-long process. Saved from Hell? Is there a moment in a person's life when he can truly affirm that he has been saved from Hell, and cannot possibly go there? Or is Hell God's temporary blessing to train people to depart from wrongdoing and then to live righteously?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Homer
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Homer » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:14 am

Hi Paidion,

Quotes from your post and my thoughts:
As for your question, "On what basis is a person saved or lost?" to deal with this question there would have to be a common understanding of the words "saved" or "lost". Saved from what?
Well, since you referred to our eternal destiny in your first post as dependent on the life we live, I understand that is pertinent to your "saved from what" question.
So it appears that Jesus taught that our eternal destiny depends upon whether we have lived good lives or evil ones.
So you actually believe we are saved by works? That works are salvific and rather than evidentiary? I wish you would address this question.
Saved from wrongdoing? This is a life-long process.
I too believe in progressive sanctification.
Saved from Hell? Is there a moment in a person's life when he can truly affirm that he has been saved from Hell, and cannot possibly go there?
I believe I am presently saved from hell but this state is dependent on what Jesus said: Faithfull until death.... Do you believe no one in this life can be comforted by the promise of presently being saved from hell?
Or is Hell God's temporary blessing to train people to depart from wrongdoing and then to live righteously?
This seems to be a huge contradiction. We are supposed to believe persons in hell then repent and are on a sort of probation, living righteously for some unknown period until they earn there way to heaven? Or do they go straight to heaven upon repentance and bypass the requirement you stated earlier to live righteously?

steve7150
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by steve7150 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:26 pm

Or is Hell God's temporary blessing to train people to depart from wrongdoing and then to live righteously?

This seems to be a huge contradiction. We are supposed to believe persons in hell then repent and are on a sort of probation, living righteously for some unknown period until they earn there way to heaven? Or do they go straight to heaven upon repentance and bypass the requirement you stated earlier to live righteously?


Clearly we are saved by faith yet we are judged by our works so in what way can this not be a contradiction? To me the works unbelievers are judged by do not alone save us but specify to Christ what the nature of our restoration will be in the LOF. There simply is no other answer that connects the dots which is that the primary purpose of the LOF is to cleanse us or prepare us for repentance and ultimately salvation. I do not know if everyone will be saved or not but i can't think of any other logical and scriptually meshing purpose for the LOF.

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Paidion
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Re: The Basis of Our Eternal Destiny

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:30 pm

Homer, you wrote:So you actually believe we are saved by works? That works are salvific and rather than evidentiary? I wish you would address this question.
At no time have I indicated that we are "saved by works". Christians are in the process of salvation from SIN throughout their lives. A person's initial submission to the authority of Jesus in his life is only the beginning of salvation. But some day that process will be complete.

As the apostle Paul put it:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)

What I believe is that good works and righteous living are NECESSARY! Otherwise, Jesus' words would be untrue:

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5: 28, 29)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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