Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:04 pm

Dwight wrote:These verses are difficult to maneuver around, for those who say that Jesus is not God
And yet we have discussed all of this before.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:48 am

Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; ..."

Ephesians 3:19 - "to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

In Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

We, on the other hand, in Christ, may be filled with all the fullness of God. Notice it does not say "dwells" or "Godhead" or "bodily".

Jesus has the fullness of the GODHEAD DWELLING in His BODY. We do not.

We, in Christ, may be filled with all the fullness of God, but the Godhead does not dwell (remain constantly) in our physical bodies.

What's the difference between the two? It appears that there is only one: He is God and we are NOT.

If the authors of the Bible did NOT want us to think that Jesus was and is God, they sure had a confusing way of communicating that to us, since so much of scripture contradicts that.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:15 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:48 am
Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; ..."

Ephesians 3:19 - "to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

In Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

We, on the other hand, in Christ, may be filled with all the fullness of God. Notice it does not say "dwells" or "Godhead" or "bodily".

Jesus has the fullness of the GODHEAD DWELLING in His BODY. We do not.

We, in Christ, may be filled with all the fullness of God, but the Godhead does not dwell (remain constantly) in our physical bodies.

What's the difference between the two? It appears that there is only one: He is God and we are NOT.

If the authors of the Bible did NOT want us to think that Jesus was and is God, they sure had a confusing way of communicating that to us, since so much of scripture contradicts that.
I think the authors would have said many things VERY differently if they had wanted us to think that Jesus "just was" and "just is" God. I know it's an argument from silence, but it's perhaps the best one EVER.... namely, as central as monotheism was to their faith and culture and very identity -- more so than even something like circumcision... and seeing how controversial something like circumcision and dietary laws were to the Jerusalem Council and beyond.... do you REALLY think something like this (if believed clearly by the apostles and early disciples) would not have been AT LEAST as controversial in the first century and addressed HEAD ON by the apostles in AT LEAST as direct way as those issues?

But, just on this godhead dwelling issue (and I've mentioned this before as well), he had in fullness what we only have in part because he was perfect, and not tainted by original sin at his birth and never sinned thereafter. Important Question to your premise: Do you believe Jesus "COULD" have chosen to sin at any point in his life?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:53 pm

Darin, do you believe that Jesus was not divine in any different sense than any other person can be divine? That he was not the son of God in any sense other than any other person devoted to God, is the son of God?

If this is not your belief— if you believe Jesus was the unique son of God, please explain.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:56 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:15 pm


Dwight -If the authors of the Bible did NOT want us to think that Jesus was and is God, they sure had a confusing way of communicating that to us, since so much of scripture contradicts that.
I think the authors would have said many things VERY differently if they had wanted us to think that Jesus "just was" and "just is" God.
... do you REALLY think something like this (if believed clearly by the apostles and early disciples) would not have been AT LEAST as controversial in the first century and addressed HEAD ON by the apostles in AT LEAST as direct way as those issues?

Dwight - Your question sounds almost identical to the Jews question to Jesus in John 10:24-25: "The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly (or HEAD ON).' Jesus answered them, 'I told you and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.'"

Dwight - They could just as easily have said, "If you are God, tell us plainly (or HEAD ON)." In fact, many believe that that is essentially the SAME QUESTION. And Jesus' answer would have been the same: "I told you and you do not believe." The apostles wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, but it's not plain enough for you. Is it just a coincidence that Jesus did not address His Messiahship plainly and then later His apostles did not address His being God plainly? The same Holy Spirit who led Jesus in what to say, also led His apostles in what they said. But it is plenty plain for those who believe.

But, just on this godhead dwelling issue (and I've mentioned this before as well), he had in fullness what we only have in part because he was perfect, and not tainted by original sin at his birth and never sinned thereafter.

Dwight - I'm not convinced of your point here. Before Adam and Eve sinned, could they have had the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in them bodily? I don't think so. They were human, not God. Jesus had all the fullness because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High. Yes, He was human, but He was also God in the flesh. Also, when He took on Himself the sin of all mankind, did He cease having the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him bodily? No, I don't think so.

Darin - Important Question to your premise: Do you believe Jesus "COULD" have chosen to sin at any point in his life?

Dwight - YES, that's what Hebrews 4:15 tells us.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:14 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:53 pm
Darin, do you believe that Jesus was not divine in any different sense than any other person can be divine? That he was not the son of God in any sense other than any other person devoted to God, is the son of God?

If this is not your belief— if you believe Jesus was the unique son of God, please explain.
Of course he was divine in a sense different from us. He was the progeny of God in a unique way without human father. And was treated as the Father's unique son like none other and given a place and destiny and mission like no other and an inheritance and place of honor and authority like no other and rule of God's earthly kingdom forever. I'm sure there are other ways in which his divinity is uniquely observable but we aren't told completely how all that works. Joseph and Moses were, indeed, types of Christ in at least this way -- it was not for the plebes to even question how they were "royal" but only that they were. I see divinity and royalty in very much the same way.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:16 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:56 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:15 pm


Dwight -If the authors of the Bible did NOT want us to think that Jesus was and is God, they sure had a confusing way of communicating that to us, since so much of scripture contradicts that.
I think the authors would have said many things VERY differently if they had wanted us to think that Jesus "just was" and "just is" God.
... do you REALLY think something like this (if believed clearly by the apostles and early disciples) would not have been AT LEAST as controversial in the first century and addressed HEAD ON by the apostles in AT LEAST as direct way as those issues?

Dwight - Your question sounds almost identical to the Jews question to Jesus in John 10:24-25: "The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly (or HEAD ON).' Jesus answered them, 'I told you and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.'"

Dwight - They could just as easily have said, "If you are God, tell us plainly (or HEAD ON)." In fact, many believe that that is essentially the SAME QUESTION. And Jesus' answer would have been the same: "I told you and you do not believe." The apostles wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, but it's not plain enough for you. Is it just a coincidence that Jesus did not address His Messiahship plainly and then later His apostles did not address His being God plainly? The same Holy Spirit who led Jesus in what to say, also led His apostles in what they said. But it is plenty plain for those who believe.

But, just on this godhead dwelling issue (and I've mentioned this before as well), he had in fullness what we only have in part because he was perfect, and not tainted by original sin at his birth and never sinned thereafter.

Dwight - I'm not convinced of your point here. Before Adam and Eve sinned, could they have had the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in them bodily? I don't think so. They were human, not God. Jesus had all the fullness because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High. Yes, He was human, but He was also God in the flesh. Also, when He took on Himself the sin of all mankind, did He cease having the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him bodily? No, I don't think so.

Darin - Important Question to your premise: Do you believe Jesus "COULD" have chosen to sin at any point in his life?

Dwight - YES, that's what Hebrews 4:15 tells us.
He was the "temple" of the Holy Spirit - that Spirit "is" God. That is the sense in which I believe he had the fullness of the spirit in him. The fact that it "dwelt" in him seems to imply it "wasn't" him.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:16 am

Darin, you wrote:The fact that it "dwelt" in him seems to imply it "wasn't" him.
Point of grammar here. I was a school teacher for many years, and so find it difficult to let this pass.
"him" needs to be the object of a verb.
In this case it is not an object, but a subjective completion, for "was" is not an action verb, but rather a copula verb.
Thus you should have written, "seems to imply that it wasn't he".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:40 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:16 am
Darin, you wrote:The fact that it "dwelt" in him seems to imply it "wasn't" him.
Point of grammar here. I was a school teacher for many years, and so find it difficult to let this pass.
"him" needs to be the object of a verb.
In this case it is not an object, but a subjective completion, for "was" is not an action verb, but rather a copula verb.
Thus you should have written, "seems to imply that it wasn't he".
Touche. Den Ego Eime, perhaps?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:20 pm

I am not sure what you are asking.

εγω εμει (egō emei) (Mark 13:6) literally means "I, I am". It is understood that this means "I am" with an emphasis on "I".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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