So, the fact that God builds everything doesn't mean you are God simply because you built something?dwight92070 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 4:48 pmDwight - I don't know see why that would matter, but yes, I spent a considerable amount of time framing homes.
Jesus is God
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
That's no explanation for what it means.
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
What it doesn't mean is that Jesus is God because Jesus built the church and all things were built by God, so Jesus is God.
It means exactly what it says -- the ultimate builder is God who in the most ultimate sense built everything. This is the ultimate example of the principle just mentioned about the builder being greater than the thing built. The main point is that Jesus built the church and did so by being faithful to his appointment like Mose but even greater because he had a higher status as son than Moses as servant.
It just has nothing to do with your point.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
darinhouston wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 11:12 pmWhat it doesn't mean is that Jesus is God because Jesus built the church and all things were built by God, so Jesus is God.
It means exactly what it says -- the ultimate builder is God who in the most ultimate sense built everything. This is the ultimate example of the principle just mentioned about the builder being greater than the thing built. The main point is that Jesus built the church and did so by being faithful to his appointment like Mose but even greater because he had a higher status as son than Moses as servant.
It just has nothing to do with your point.
My point cannot so easily be discarded. Only God could build the house of Israel - Moses could not do it, even though he led Israel. Likewise only God could build the church and body of Christ, yet Jesus declared: "On this rock, I will build My church." Jesus is identifying Himself as the builder of all things - God.
On Hebrews 3:3-4:
Benson's Commentary says that "Christ built the house in that glorious manner, because He is God."
Jamieson-Faucett-Brown Bible Commentary says that since "Christ is the instrumental Creator of all things, He must be God."
Matthew Poole's Commentary says that "if He made the church, then He is better than the whole church - this gospel prophet, Who was God as well as man."
The Geneva Study Bible says "Christ, as Lord and God, made the house."
Bengel's Gnomon of the New Testament says "Christ hath built the house, and all things, and so Christ is God."
Vincent's word studies agree that "Christ, as One with God" built all things.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
"Paul, an apostle (NOT FROM MEN NOR THROUGH MAN, BUT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST and God the Father ...") Galatians 1:1
Did you catch that? Paul is saying that Jesus is NOT A MAN, just as His Father is not a man, and that He was NOT A MAN when He called Paul on the road to Damascus. Of course Jesus was in heaven when He called Paul, and we know that He had a glorified body, but He was NOT A MAN.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will), but I believe all other men who die and go to heaven now are still men. In fact, even after the 2nd coming of Christ, when we all put on immortal bodies, I believe we will still be men - redeemed men and glorified men, but still men. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah ARE ALL STILL MEN When we go to heaven, we too, will STILL BE MEN. Yes, Jesus said that we will be LIKE the angels, who neither marry or are given in marriage, so many things will be different, but I believe we will still be men.
Hebrews 12:22-24 says that in heaven there are "the spirits of JUST MEN MADE PERFECT", so even in heaven, we are men. But NOT JESUS!
Look at Galatians 1:10 - " ...For if I still pleased MEN, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ."
Again, Christ is NOT A MAN. He was a man for about 33 1/2 years, but not before that or after that.
Verse 11 says - " ... For I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is NOT ACCORDING TO MAN. FOR I NEITHER RECEIVED IT FROM MAN, NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT IT CAME THROUGH THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST."
Paul is telling us that Jesus is NOT A MAN, AND THAT HE IS GOD.
So if Jesus is not a man, who or what is He? Some sort of creature between God and man? No, He is God. When He was on earth, He was a man, but He was also God - God in the flesh. Now HE is God as He was before He came to earth.
Did you catch that? Paul is saying that Jesus is NOT A MAN, just as His Father is not a man, and that He was NOT A MAN when He called Paul on the road to Damascus. Of course Jesus was in heaven when He called Paul, and we know that He had a glorified body, but He was NOT A MAN.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will), but I believe all other men who die and go to heaven now are still men. In fact, even after the 2nd coming of Christ, when we all put on immortal bodies, I believe we will still be men - redeemed men and glorified men, but still men. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah ARE ALL STILL MEN When we go to heaven, we too, will STILL BE MEN. Yes, Jesus said that we will be LIKE the angels, who neither marry or are given in marriage, so many things will be different, but I believe we will still be men.
Hebrews 12:22-24 says that in heaven there are "the spirits of JUST MEN MADE PERFECT", so even in heaven, we are men. But NOT JESUS!
Look at Galatians 1:10 - " ...For if I still pleased MEN, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ."
Again, Christ is NOT A MAN. He was a man for about 33 1/2 years, but not before that or after that.
Verse 11 says - " ... For I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is NOT ACCORDING TO MAN. FOR I NEITHER RECEIVED IT FROM MAN, NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT IT CAME THROUGH THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST."
Paul is telling us that Jesus is NOT A MAN, AND THAT HE IS GOD.
So if Jesus is not a man, who or what is He? Some sort of creature between God and man? No, He is God. When He was on earth, He was a man, but He was also God - God in the flesh. Now HE is God as He was before He came to earth.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
We know that the Messiah, the Christ, Jesus, came in the flesh.
Paul said that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19
So truly Jesus was "God in the flesh".
This agrees with the apostle John who said "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ..." John 1:14
And of course " ... the Word was God." John 1:1
John also said, "By this we know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has COME IN THE FLESH is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has COME IN THE FLESH is not of God ... " 1 John 4:2-3
You and I did NOT come in the flesh. We were born in the flesh. Our spirit did not preexist. But Jesus came in the flesh. His Spirit did preexist. Where did He come from? He told us that He came down from heaven.
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven." John 6:51
This is a metaphor, but it's more than just a metaphor. How do we know that? Look at John 16:27-28
" ... for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
So He LITERALLY came forth from God. It's plain that He existed before. Notice that it does not say that the Father begot Him prior to His physical birth. He was God's only begotten Son at His physical birth, which John confirms in John 1:14, but not before His physical birth. Nor does it say that He was created before His physical birth. He always was.
Isn't the concept of the Trinity clearly seen in these verses, even though it is not presented as a doctrine here? He who comes forth from God must be "part of" God.
John the Baptist put it this way: "He who comes from above is ABOVE ALL." John 3:31
From these and many other verses, I find it difficult to believe that the Deity of Jesus was not clearly seen and believed in by the twelve apostles (maybe not Judas, although it's not impossible that he too, believed it, but still betrayed Jesus) even before Jesus was crucified.
Paul said that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19
So truly Jesus was "God in the flesh".
This agrees with the apostle John who said "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ..." John 1:14
And of course " ... the Word was God." John 1:1
John also said, "By this we know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has COME IN THE FLESH is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has COME IN THE FLESH is not of God ... " 1 John 4:2-3
You and I did NOT come in the flesh. We were born in the flesh. Our spirit did not preexist. But Jesus came in the flesh. His Spirit did preexist. Where did He come from? He told us that He came down from heaven.
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven." John 6:51
This is a metaphor, but it's more than just a metaphor. How do we know that? Look at John 16:27-28
" ... for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
So He LITERALLY came forth from God. It's plain that He existed before. Notice that it does not say that the Father begot Him prior to His physical birth. He was God's only begotten Son at His physical birth, which John confirms in John 1:14, but not before His physical birth. Nor does it say that He was created before His physical birth. He always was.
Isn't the concept of the Trinity clearly seen in these verses, even though it is not presented as a doctrine here? He who comes forth from God must be "part of" God.
John the Baptist put it this way: "He who comes from above is ABOVE ALL." John 3:31
From these and many other verses, I find it difficult to believe that the Deity of Jesus was not clearly seen and believed in by the twelve apostles (maybe not Judas, although it's not impossible that he too, believed it, but still betrayed Jesus) even before Jesus was crucified.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
Remember when the children of Israel asked for a king to rule over them. God told Samuel, "... they have not rejected you but they have rejected Me from being King over them." 1 Samuel 8:7
God had created the nation of Israel, starting with Abraham, and later Jacob and 69 members of his family going into Egypt. Genesis 46:27
When Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, there could have been 3 million or more. So the nation of Israel was born, led by the prophet Moses, yet God was their King. Exodus 19:6 says they were a kingdom of priests, which requires a King over them.
They had no president or congress, but God Himself was their "president". He was their King and He ruled over them and called Moses to lead them, using a covenant of laws to govern them.
So under the Old Covenant, God Himself was Israel's King. Under the New Covenant, did God choose someone lower than Himself to be Israel's King? In other words, did He actually allow Israel to reject Him again from being their King, by allowing someone other than Himself to take that position?
Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." Matthew 27:11 and Mark 15:2 and Luke 23:3
Jesus said in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world." Pilate said to Him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth ..."
In John 19:15 Pilate asks the Jews, "Shall I crucify your king?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."
Under the New Covenant, God Himself was still Israel's King. Jesus, God in the flesh, was the King of Israel. It's beyond belief that God would allow someone other than Himself, who is NOT God, to take His place as King of Israel. We know God did not allow that. He Himself was the King of Israel during the Old Covenant AND during the New Covenant. Obviously, Jesus is God.
God had created the nation of Israel, starting with Abraham, and later Jacob and 69 members of his family going into Egypt. Genesis 46:27
When Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, there could have been 3 million or more. So the nation of Israel was born, led by the prophet Moses, yet God was their King. Exodus 19:6 says they were a kingdom of priests, which requires a King over them.
They had no president or congress, but God Himself was their "president". He was their King and He ruled over them and called Moses to lead them, using a covenant of laws to govern them.
So under the Old Covenant, God Himself was Israel's King. Under the New Covenant, did God choose someone lower than Himself to be Israel's King? In other words, did He actually allow Israel to reject Him again from being their King, by allowing someone other than Himself to take that position?
Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say." Matthew 27:11 and Mark 15:2 and Luke 23:3
Jesus said in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world." Pilate said to Him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth ..."
In John 19:15 Pilate asks the Jews, "Shall I crucify your king?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."
Under the New Covenant, God Himself was still Israel's King. Jesus, God in the flesh, was the King of Israel. It's beyond belief that God would allow someone other than Himself, who is NOT God, to take His place as King of Israel. We know God did not allow that. He Himself was the King of Israel during the Old Covenant AND during the New Covenant. Obviously, Jesus is God.
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
The birth of Jesus can only be explained by God doing it. There's no record of any other angel identified by name, who was speaking first to a man, then to a woman. But this was the angel Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God. First, he appears to Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, then six months later, Gabriel appears to Mary. Mary was not impregnated by any man, but by "the Holy Spirit" coming upon her and "the power of the Most High" overshadowing her. People may not like the idea that God united His sperm with Mary's egg, but that cannot be totally rejected as a possibility. After all, that's how women get pregnant. If that is what happened, then we have "part of God" uniting with "part of man, or in this case, woman" to create a baby that was "part God" and "part human", or to be more accurate, fully God and fully human.
"He will save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21 Only God can forgive sins. Who would save Him from His sins? Oh, it doesn't say that He has any sins. Only God is without sin.
The wise men from the east were somehow told by God that the King of the Jews had been born. Not only that, but they knew that they should WORSHIP HIM. Only God deserves worship. When men worship other men, they are committing idolatry. A "star" not only revealed to them that He had been born, but also apparently led them to Israel, and later to Bethlehem. Only God could cause a star to lead anyone to anything, and in this case, to God in the flesh.
He is the biological result of God uniting with a woman. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are intimately involved in this union. He has no sin. He forgives His people, possibly billions of people for their sins, He is worshiped by wise men. We have God here!!
"He will save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21 Only God can forgive sins. Who would save Him from His sins? Oh, it doesn't say that He has any sins. Only God is without sin.
The wise men from the east were somehow told by God that the King of the Jews had been born. Not only that, but they knew that they should WORSHIP HIM. Only God deserves worship. When men worship other men, they are committing idolatry. A "star" not only revealed to them that He had been born, but also apparently led them to Israel, and later to Bethlehem. Only God could cause a star to lead anyone to anything, and in this case, to God in the flesh.
He is the biological result of God uniting with a woman. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are intimately involved in this union. He has no sin. He forgives His people, possibly billions of people for their sins, He is worshiped by wise men. We have God here!!
- darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God
I've quit trying to respond to your posts as a general matter, but this is certainly troubling...
- dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God
darinhouston wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:37 pmI've quit trying to respond to your posts as a general matter, but this is certainly troubling...