Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

[Jill]

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[Jess]

Hi Homer, you wrote:

Wouldn't your idea make the geneology of Jesus irrelevant? The scriptures seem to place inportance on his ancestry. He would be neither "Son of David" nor "Son of Man".

If the fact that Jesus did not share Mary's DNA made His ancestry through her irrelevant then I guess His ancestry through Joseph was also irrelevant. He did not inherit anything from Joseph but it doesn't appear that His paternal lineage was considered irrelevant. So if He didn't inherit anything from Mary why would it be any different?

Hi Steve, You wondered if Eve was displaying a bent toward sin prior to eating the fruit.

I don't see that it says she actually lusted after it. Genesis 3:6 "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." She seems to have identified some "positives" that would come if she ate . It was a delight to the eyes and was desirable to make one wise. I guess one could say that "desirable to make one wise" might be another way of saying "lust" but I'm not sure.

But James suggests that there might actually be a difference between lust and sin: James 1:14 "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Sounds sort of like lust leads to sin.

Hi Darin,

Thanks for the link to F.F. Bruce's essay. Very interesting. I see Him saying that Jesus was born with the same kind of nature as ours but that His indwelling by the Holy Spirit from birth (or at least the age of accoutability) allowed Him to lead His sinless life. I suppose this is an acceptable alternative. I don't know that there is any way to know for sure. I am not aware of scripture that completely clarifies it one way or the other. I would wonder, however, why the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to keep me from sin like He did Jesus. My own feeling is that, Holy Spirit or not, it still comes down to our choice to obey and follow God or not. The Spirit enables me to overcome sinful tendencies but only as I volitionally turn to Him. I can still grieve Him by choosing my own way.

So, the two possibilities I see are that Jesus was born with the same bent toward sin that we have but, through His divine character and with the help of the Spirit, He lived a sinless life. The other is that He was born with the same nature as Adam (not fallen) and by His divine character and with the help of the Spirit lived a sinless life. Either way, He did what neither Adam nor we were able to do. This is certainly not a "to die for" issue for me and I am open to any reasonable explanations.

Hi Jill. You said that you do not see innate depravity or original sin.

If you define "original sin" as us being guilty of Adam's sin I would agree with you. I think we are all guilty of our own sins. Matthew says (1:21) that Jesus came to save the people from their sins, not Adam's. David (Psalm 51:2-4) also seemed concerned with his own sins, not those of Adam. I do, however, think that we all do indeed have a bent toward sinning. Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". There certainly seems to be something within all of us that draws us to the pleasure of sin.

Peace and Grace in Him

Jess

[Jill]

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[Andre]

Lets do a little bible study to find out what “man“ is in order to find out who Christ had to be in order to be “a high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)

In the beginning… (wish I could do Star Wars style scrolling)
Gen. 2:7: And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You see the creation of man comes in 3 parts.
1 - man’s body from the dust (the part that relates to the natural world).
2- the breath of life a.k.a. the man’s spirit (the part of man that relates to the spiritual world and God)
3- the man’s soul. This part is not formed until the sprit enters the body. It is the seat of the will and our personality. This is why throughout scripture we are referred to as souls.

Adam and Eve in their pre-fallen state were the only people who we can say had a truly “free will” because they were undefiled by the sin nature because their souls were truly free to choose to obey God or not (they were not yet “slaves to sin” Rom 6:6).

Lets now look at what they chose in tree of the knowledge of good and evil and why that was such a “bad” fruit to eat.

Gen 3:4,5 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Man was already like God, being created “in His image” (Gen. 1:26,27) so what was it that would change? The change was that we would now have a sense of good and evil apart from what God says is “good” or “evil.” We would be independently moral creatures whereas before we were amoral because we relied completely on God to tell us what was right or wrong.

This brings us to Gen 3:6 where we see temptation in all 3 of its forms (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life) first become sin.
“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (lust of the flesh) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (lust of the eyes) and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (pride of life) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat (sin), and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat (sin).”

Now Eve was in fact deceived but it is never Eve who is blamed for sin entering the world; it is always Adam. Why? Because he was her husband and therefore the one ultimately responsible for their family (Eph. 5:23, 1 Cor. 11:3). Therefore it was Adam’s sin, not Eve’s, that was passed down and Adam who is responsible death entering into the world (Rom. 5:12-19).

This is how we have “sin” (as in our sin nature) because we are all Adam’s seed. This sin nature causes us to desire sins.

(If I’ve skipped over something important to you let me know… I’m trying not to write a book here)

Now, on to Jesus. Yay!

Why was it necessary for Him to be born of a virgin? It was necessary so that He would not be of Adam’s seed and therefore not tainted by Adam’s transgression. This is why Jesus is called the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45).

Now we go back to the 3 parts of a man (Spirit, soul, body) and how they come together to form Jesus.
1- Mary provides the “dirt,” so to speak, in her egg. This then becomes His body.
2- Holy Spirit gives it the “breath of life” this is why the Bible says “before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.” (Matt 1:18)
3- Then like we learned earlier once the spirit entered the body “He became a living soul”.

This makes Jesus a man just as Adam and Eve were before the fall. An amoral being the Son of man, the last Adam and finally the second man, from heaven (1 Cor. 15:47). Jesus did not have to have the “sin nature” passed down from Adam in order to be a “man” only the three parts of “man,” sprit, soul and body. Because Jesus was a free moral being He had the chance to succeed where Adam failed in living a holy life unto God without sin.

Once Jesus was baptized and Holy Spirit came upon Him (Matt 3:16…) He was brought out to be tempted:
Matt. 4:3 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." (lust of the flesh)

Matt. 4:5,6 Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'" (pride of life)

Matt 4:8,9 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." (lust of the eyes)

Jesus went through all this and much more I’m sure especially when the devil returned… but the important thing to know is that He did not fall into sin during these temptations.

Now for the million dollar question… how does that apply to me since I am of Adam’s seed and do have a sin nature?

The truth is that your sin nature cannot be fixed or polished up. There is no remedy for a sin nature. If there was there would be no need for the cross. Praise be to God He has found a solution… He kills us. More specifically He crucifies us with Christ (Gal 2:20) and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

We are no longer that old person from Adam’s seed. That man is DEAD. He no longer exists. Or as the Bible puts it: Rom. 8:10,11 If Christ is in you, though THE BODY IS DEAD because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES THROUGH HIS SPIRIT who dwells in you.

Or to put it another way
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

You are no longer of the race from Adam but made one with Christ Jesus free of sin and the sin nature.

[Paidion]

As I see it, Jesus was a true human being. In becoming a human being, He emptied Himself of His divine attributes. The only thing He retained was His identity as the Son of God.

[Jesus],though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phillippians 2:6,7

Jesus inherited through His mother, full humanity, including the tendency to sin. That explains how he was "tempted in all points as we are". Yet He was without sin. By trusting in the Father, He was able to chose not to sin on every occasion in which He was tempted. This is why He is called "the second Adam" (or "the second humanity"). Unlike the first humanity, He chose NOT to sin, and therefore was the pioneer of a new regenerate humanity.

So why the virgin birth? Somehow God had to incarnate the Son He had begotten at the beginning of time. In order to do this, He moved upon Mary by His Spirit, and His Son (who is the Spirit) was born as a human being.

[darinhouston]

Is this a fair way to look at it? Jesus didn't need to be born of a virgin to be sinless. He did need to be conceived supernaturally. If God had impregnated a married woman, there would have been issues perhaps of interfering with the husband's rights. So, that left God to impregnate an unmarried (and hence virgin) woman, thus was the prophecy made and fulfilled.

If the virgin birth wasn't for the purpose of preventing original sin contamination, then how did Jesus avoid sin as a child/infant ?

[RickC]

I'm still studying the virgin conception (after several years).....
Just one quick comment.

If God had impregnated a married woman, there would have been issues perhaps of interfering with the husband's rights. So, that left God to impregnate an unmarried (and hence virgin) woman, thus was the prophecy made and fulfilled.

Joesph and Mary WERE married: Betrothal was the initial phase of marriage in first century Judaism. They didn't have what we call "engagement."

Thanks!

[TK]

darin wrote:

If the virgin birth wasn't for the purpose of preventing original sin contamination, then how did Jesus avoid sin as a child/infant ?

I have thought about this before, especially in regard to age 3-5-- when kids dont share (or do so unwillingly), are learning to ignore their parents, etc. Did Jesus do any of these things?

My conclusion is that things like this must not be considered sin in God's eyes- things done by a child before they are old enough to understand consequences and motivations. Saying "mine" when you are 4 is different from saying "mine" when you are 12. of course, it is POSSIBLE that jesus was a "perfect little angel" in his very young years. However, I believe that this would establish that he was not fully human, and I believe that he was.

TK

[Jeff]

I think that children sinning before they know better is proof of the concept of original sin. I have to disagree here, because IMO even if Jesus sinned as a child before He knew better then He still could not be considered perfect. Sins of a child are pardonable offenses in the eyes of God IMO but nonetheless still offenses.

[backwoodsman]

A friend once told me they'd never, ever had to discipline their then-5-year-old son, because just the knowledge that he'd displeased his parents was enough to make him cry, and he always tried very hard to please them. Having known a kid like that, I have no problem at all with the idea that Jesus never sinned even as a child.