Jesus: Truly God in the Gospels

[Paidion]

You seem to have entered into a detailed study of Deity. That is valuable indeed!

I, myself, mean by it 'truly divine.' I'm not sure what you mean by 'more than than.' I think the list provided makes a strong case that Jesus did view himself as divine and equal to the Father. In a subsequent week we will look at verses which seem to suggest otherwise.

When many people say, "Jesus is truly God", they mean that Jesus is the same Divine Individual as His Father. (That's what I meant by "more than that"). They say that "God" was born as a human being, which seems to suggest that God and Jesus is the same divine Individual. However, if you mean by it "truly Divine", then I am in accord with you. For even John 1:18 (in the early manuscripts before 300 A.D.) asserts Jesus to have been "the only-begotten God", He was begotten by the Father "before all ages" as the early Christians (and even the original Nicene Creed of 325 A.D.) affirm. The God of Jesus Christ, the Father of all, was "unbegotten". Jesus called His Father, "My God and your God" (John 21:17)

[Candlepower]

I do not believe that he did anything on earth that "arose out of" his divinity.

TK

TK,

Perhaps I don't understand how you used the word "divinity," or what you meant by "arose out of," but it seems to me that Matthew 12:25 records something Jesus did that was a product of His divinity. "But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them....'" Luke 6:8 and John 13:11 record similar occurrences of Jesus' super-knowledge that seem to be possible only by divine ability.

I have guessed at other people's thoughts. We use the expression, "I know what you're thinking," and sometimes we may guess right. But I can't say I have ever actually KNOWN another person's thoughts in the way I assume Jesus knows people's thoughts. That ability seems divinely superhuman to me.

Again, I'm probably misunderstanding what you said in your comment. I'm interested in your elaboration/clarification.

Candlepower

[TK]

Hi CP-

I believe in the instance you noted it is possible that jesus just intuited their thoughts because he knew their attitudes, etc. However there are other more specific examples (like where he said he saw nathanael under the tree) etc where I think that Jesus received a "word of knowledge" which I believe is a gift of the HS that enabled him to know something specific about a person that he did not know by some other means. In other words, I believe that believers today can receive a specific word of knowledge about someone that they had no way of knowing, perhaps because they have never met the person. I do not believe there is much doubt about this.

To summarize, I think that everything Jesus did was because he was filled with the HS (the same HS we have today). Now, he operated in the gifts perfectly because he was sinless and had a perfect communion with the Father. But I don't think that any of his miraculous acts or wisdom, etc was BECAUSE he was divine. I believe that he truly emptied himself of his divinity (Phil 2). Everything he did was by the indwelling power of the HS. Personally, I find this very encouraging, not to mention exciting.

TK

[Candlepower]

Howdy TK,

Thank you for the explanation. I understand now what you're saying, but I'm not sure I see it your way. Not that I disagree, it's just that I haven't thought much along these lines, yet, and I suppose I haven't explored what Phil 2 means about "emptying Himself." I need to study on that a bit.

Everything he did was by the indwelling power of the HS. Personally, I find this very encouraging, not to mention exciting.

You are right. That is encouraging/exciting.

God bless you

CP

[TK]

CP wrote:

it's just that I haven't thought much along these lines,

I didnt either, until a few years ago. I used to think that Jesus could multiply loaves and fishes and walk on water and heal the sick BECAUSE he was God. I guess that is a reasonable position to take, since He IS God, after all. However, I am now convinced otherwise-- that every thing He did was by the power of the HS ("the Son can do nothing of Himself"-- John 5:19).

The former position takes the pressure off me (i.e. if Jesus did these things because He was God, then I am off the hook). If however, Jesus did these things because He was filled with the HS and had a perfect relationship with His Father, then the pressure is back on me. Jesus talked to His disciples like he expected them to do awesome things-- and he seemed a little disappointed when they didn't. When the storm on the sea hit while Jesus was asleep in the boat, and the disciples were in a panic, they woke Jesus up and he calmed the storm. But he admonished them for their lack of faith. Lack of faith in what? They had faith that Jesus could solve their problem- they woke Him up and He did. I personally think that Jesus expected them to be able to deal with the storm themselves, and that is what He was referring to. Of course, that is just my opinion. But I do believe that God expects us to do more than just pray for solutions. I believe He expects us to act and bring the Kingdom into specific situations, just like Jesus did.

TK

[Candlepower]

TK,

...since He IS God, after all.

Thanks for your informative response, a tid-bit of which I have quoted above. I think I see what you meant in your previous posts, and (after some reading and thinking) I cannot contend you are wrong, based on my present understanding of Scripture.

It seems clear to me that Jesus, during His earthly days, was God. He was Divine. However, He chose (prior to the incarnation) to "empty" Himself of the privileges due His Divinity. I don't think He emptied Himself of His Divinity, though. I agree with you that He was God.

I remembered John 26:53 -- "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" Here Jesus is clearly saying that He had Divine rights and privileges, but chose not to exercise them during His earthly ministry, because by not exercising them He was fulfilling His purposes. On earth, during that time, He was the gentle, submissive Lamb. Simultaneously, in the spiritual realm, He was the conquering warrior.

I kept trying to figure out how Jesus might have retained some of His privileges, thereby enabling Him to accomplish so many marvelous miracles. But the word "emptied" prevailed. I know that when I empty my pockets, there is nothing left in them -- except the pocket. So it seems reasonable to me that whatever things Jesus did, He did them because of the perfect communion that exists within the trinity, and because He was fully and constantly filled with the Holy Spirit. I can buy that.

CP

[Jill]

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[charleswest]

Matt, what exactly does the title of your thread "Jesus: Truly God..." mean? What does it mean for someone to be "truly God"? Do you simply mean "truly divine"? Or do you mean more than that?

It sets me back on my heels a bit when I read of someone referring to Jesus as "truly God" since He doesn't refer to Himself in those terms. Indeed, in His prayer to His Father, He addressed His Father as "the only true God" and He referred to Himself as something other than the true God:

This is lasting life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3 )

Was there ever a time when the Son was not? If so, well... back to the drawing board.

If not, would He be considered less than Almighty, even though the Father is greater?

[Jill]

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[mattrose]

matt wrote:

The second half of the series will focus on the humanity of Christ (of which I am more interested in thinking through).

This should be a very interesting study. While I believe Jesus was certainly divine, I do not believe that he did anything on earth that "arose out of" his divinity.

TK

I was more interested in thinking about the humanity of Jesus too. Here is my handout from Sunday evening...

Jesus: Truly God, Truly Man
Part 4: Truly Man

Kenosis theory is simply the doctrine that Jesus did not utilize His divine attributes while He was on earth. It is based largely on Philippians 2:7 which says Jesus emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (we stopped to talk about the different interpretation of the Philippians passage.. what did Jesus empty himself of?)

I am not convinced that Jesus, God in the flesh, utilized personal divine attributes at any time between his conception and the cross. Perhaps strangely, though, my main basis for this isn't so much Philippians 2:7, but more the Gospels themselves. Below are two lists that contrast the attributes of God with the attributed of Jesus in the flesh.

God’s Attributes Outside Incarnation
God is Spirit (John 4:24)
God is complete (Matthew 5:48)
God can’t be tempted (James 1:13)
God is all-knowing (Hebrews 4:13)
God is all-powerful (Isaiah 40:28)
God can’t die (1 Timothy 1:17)

God’s Attributes Within Incarnation
Jesus came in the flesh (John 1:14)
Jesus was incomplete (Luke 2:52, Hebrews 2:10)
Jesus was tempted (Mark 1:13)
Jesus didn’t know everything (Matt 24:36)
Jesus grew weary (Matthew 8:24)
Jesus died (Mark 15:37)

But, you might say, what about all those miraculous things Jesus did? Aren't those evidence of him utilizing his divine powers? I certainly think they are evidence of divine power, but not specifically his divine power. I think everything Jesus did between conception and the cross he did by submission to the Father and empowerment by the Holy Spirit.

How did Jesus minister? (Matt 3:16, John 1:32)
How did Jesus heal? (Matthew 12:15)
How did Jesus cast out demons? (Matthew 12:28)
How did Jesus make decisions? (Luke 4:1, 14)
How did Jesus preach (Luke 4:18)

Thus, I feel comfortable enough to make the claim that Jesus, between his conception and the cross, never used his divine attributes at all. Not a single time. Instead, he limited himself to the status of a mere human being and became a servant of God. He submitted to the leadership of the Holy Spirit in his life.

To me, this is a very exciting realization. Why? It's exciting because I, as someone who wants more than anything to live like Jesus, will never have divine attributes. But I very much can be filled with the Holy Spirit! Just because the Apostles did miracles doesn’t mean we declare that they had 'divine attributes,' we simply recognize that they were Spirit-filled people, just like we can be. Jesus wasn't simply God walking around with skin, he was truly man and, therefore, truly an 'example' of how we can live obedient and Spirit filled life as well (John 13:15, 1 Cor 11:1, Phil 2:5, 1 Pet 4:1, John 14:12, Heb 10:34, etc).
.............

In researching the kenosis theory, I was surprised how many people view it as heresy. It was commonplace for people to automatically assume that kenotic thinkers were saying Jesus wasn't divine during his time on earth. That's not my position at all. I was also surprised how casually they dismissed the problems with their own view. It seems to me their view doesn't take the incarnation very seriously. Seems more like a parlor trick.