Did God die on the Cross?

[Homer]

Seems to me unquestionable that Jesus, the man, the Son of God, died on the cross. The question then is whether He had, or did not have, a conscious existence until resurrected.

[Paidion]

Jesus, the man, the Son of God, died on the cross.

Yes, Jesus the man died on the cross. And Jesus the man had the identity of being the Son of God. And He was God in the sense of being divine. I suppose you could say in THAT sense that "God died on the cross".

BUT...

1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...

These passages teach that there is one God, and the first and third passage indicates that He is Someone other than Jesus Christ.
Jesus Himself in His prayer addressed the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD and indicated that He was Someon other than "the only true God:

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

So... the only true God did NOT die on the cross. The one God did not die on the cross. The Son of God, while He was in human form, died on the cross.

Whether or not He was conscious in the intermediate state can be discussed, but it is a side issue.

[jriccitelli]

Whether or not He was conscious in the intermediate state can be discussed, but it is a side issue’ (Paidion)
I will take that as ‘your’ answer: ‘Jesus is not the true God’. You’re correct, that is a different issue.

We can water down, qualify, or explain away as limited or metaphorical, but I still can't deny the plain words Christ spoke. He didn't say "one part of my nature was dead and the other really wasn't." If you can rationalize it away I don't judge you, but i can't’ (Dizerner, Dec 13)

I didn’t suggest you deny His words, but you might need to explain them. Note that this wasn’t my question in the first place (especially if you are familiar with debates with Muslims and Atheists). If you are going to give an answer to those who ask, you might want to think this through. Every word of God was proceeded by another, all the way back to Genesis. We can’t be simplistic in our answers, for example in how we answer the following verses: ‘But women will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint' (1 Tim 2:15) ‘What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?’ (James) ‘Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 5:19) ‘Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen’ (1Tim 1:17) You need more than a 'simple' answer to these verses too. God cannot die, and Jesus is God, I don't know if you want to 'rationalize it away' and I don't judge you either, just saying, there must be a good answer, and there is. Again: is Mary the mother of God? Same thing, same answer.

JR, at least Dizerner admits the obvious; God died. This wasn't a "metaphoric" death of Jesus' dying to a former life, as we might do when "born again". And, what makes you thing we skate on the literal "dying thing"? Perhaps a physical death is required. Just because Paul said "we shall not all sleep" doesn't mean we don't have to "die". His use of the word "sleep" could be a reference to being dead for a time. I don't know. (Editor, Dec 14)

Anything ‘other than’ my point is metaphoric (I do not consider being born-again as metaphoric, although you might). A dichotomy between flesh and spirit is taught throughout scripture, and indeed necessary for its reasonableness. So this dichotomy provides the best answer to the question posted above.

But in the final analysis, either Jesus died literally for us, or he didn't. Either he was dead and in the heart of the earth for three days or he wasn't. No amount of re-arranging the puzzle pieces is going to make your "approach" a "great thing" that "makes sense" (Editor, Dec 14)

I am the one saying His death was literal; you are either supposing a metaphoric death of God, or simplicity. We do have a scriptural dichotomy with Christ and men. Remember that Jonah was also conscious and ‘alive’ in the belly of the great fish, just as Jesus was:
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison’ (1Peter 3:18-19) "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed" (1Peter 2:24) ‘And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last’ (Luke 23:46, Psalms 31:5, upper case not mine)
I believe there is enough scriptural evidence that Jesus paid the penalty for sins with the death of His body and flesh on the Cross, and his spirit went on to be with the Father. He did not die in the Spirit, nor did the The Holy Spirit depart from Him.

Seems to me unquestionable that Jesus, the man, the Son of God, died on the cross. The question then is whether He had, or did not have, a conscious existence until resurrected’ (Homer, Dec 14)

Your right, this is the question the first precept evokes: Was Jesus conscious? If Jesus was conscious then: was Jesus alive? Could Jesus have been physically dead in the grave and spiritually alive at the same time? Are we dead and alive at the same time? I believe the answer to these questions are yes.
‘For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God' 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory’ (Col 3:3-4)

[Paidion]

I believe there is enough scriptural evidence that Jesus paid the penalty for sins with the death of His body and flesh on the Cross, and his spirit went on to be with the father. He did not die in the Spirit

Just prior to making this statement you quote (apparently as "evidence") "having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit".

Please explain how, if "He did not die in the spirit", as you affirm, how could He have been made alive in the spirit? Isn't it necessary to die in order to be made alive?

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[jriccitelli]

I understand your reticence to think of it, but who is to say what God can and cannot do? (Diz)

Not me, God is the One who says what He can and cannot do. And God has said what I quoted here.

Where is your Biblical support that Jesus did not really fully die?

Again, Jesus is God, incarnate yes, but incarnate simply means ‘in the flesh’. God Immortal / the giver and Creator of life cannot die / He is the Life. And I think I have given enough verse on that already.

‘Indeed I think his death is the biggest witness for muslims and atheists’ (Diz)

Actually, Muslims have three or so different views of Jesus and the cross, depending on who you talk to. Ascended or escaped death somehow other than the cross, they do believe he is dead in the sense that he is in heaven. They will not admit to His being ‘crucified’ which would therefore imply that Jesus ‘died’, just as anyone would be considered dead, if having hung on a cross and witnessed as dead from all external appearances. Something no mortal could rise from. And still, their common main rejection is Christianity is of Jesus being God in flesh.

[jriccitelli]

Please explain how, if "He did not die in the spirit", as you affirm, how could He have been made alive in the spirit? Isn't it necessary to die in order to be made alive? (Paidion)

I underlined previously where it says that Jesus went and made proclamation to the ‘spirits’;
“… put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison’ (1peter 3:18-19) In which seems to indicate that Jesus did this during the time his body was in the tomb. And I believe the 'made' alive would also refer to making His body alive by the same Spirit ‘in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits now in prison’
"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again’ (John 10:18)
Jesus having become like a man, was given the power to raise himself from the dead, so in order to raise himself he would have to have been conscious in order to do make a conscious decision. If He was completely dead, or unconscious, He would have never come to, since he said he had the power within Himself. So he must have been conscious.
“who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life’ (Heb.7:16)
Again, no one can raise their own body, or anyone’s body back to life, except God. And no one can destroy both the body and the soul – except God. So man, or the Devil, cannot kill the soul.
'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand’ (Duet.32:39)
Seems to me you can’t kill the one who gives life. But that's another subject (TIC)

[Homer]

Consider this:

Luke 23:46 (NASB)

46. And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

If Jesus in the tomb experienced "soul sleep", His cry from the cross makes no sense; His spirit would not have left to go anywhere.

Henry Alford commented:

It was His own act...a determinate delivering up of His spirit to the Father. - "He delivered up His spirit," John: see John 10:18 - "no man taketh it from Me but I lay it down of myself." None of the Evangelists say 'He died': although that expression is ever used of His death stated as one great fact: - but it is "yielded up His spirit," Matthew; "breathed His last," Mark, Luke; "delivered up His spirit," John. The spirit is here the personality - the human soul informed by the Spirit, in union: - not separated, so that His soul went to Hades, and His spirit to the Father....Both are delivered into the hand of the Father; by whom quickened, He worked His great victory over death and Hell.

When Stephen was stoned to death in Acts 7:55-60 we see Stephen filled with the Holy Spirit and he sees Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God and he says "Jesus, receive my spirit...". It seems Stephen expected to be with the Lord that day, the future tense is not used.

[steve7150]

When Stephen was stoned to death in Acts 7:55-60 we see Stephen filled with the Holy Spirit and he sees Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God and he says "Jesus, receive my spirit...". It seems Stephen expected to be with the Lord that day, the future tense is not used.









Yes, good observation.

[Paidion]

I underlined previously where it says that Jesus went and made proclamation to the ‘spirits’;
“… put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison’ (1peter 3:18-19) In which seems to indicate that Jesus did this during the time his body was in the tomb.

Let's examine the whole passage:

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. (1 Peter 3:18-20 RSV)

Why do you suppose He preached (or "made proclamation") only to the spirits who did not obey in the days of Noah during the building of the ark? Or if He did preach to later spirits, why were the antediluvian spirits the only ones mentioned? Let me offer an explanation:

Prior to the flood, there were giants (Nephilim) who were the offspring of fallen angels and human women. Unlike normal humans who are single entities without spirits and/or souls separte from our bodies, these Nephilim, who had non-material fathers, or "spirit-fathers" if you will, did possess spirits separate from their bodies. The Son-of-God, during the days of Noah, went to the spirits of the Nephilim who were imprisoned for their wickedness, and preached to them to give them the opportunity to come under His authority. Notice the passage tells us WHEN He preached to them. He preached to them WHEN God's patience waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark. There is no indication that He preached to them after He died here on earth.

But then, the passage begins stating that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. This, being made alive in the spirit DID occur after His death. For He existed as "spirit" prior to His incarnation, and then existed as "spirit" again after He was raised from the dead. There is no indication that He existed as spirit between His death and resurrection.