Nature of the Atonement

[dseusy]

Paidion wrote:
No. We are not yet complete in righteousness. I am talking about genuine practical righteousness, not a "righteousness" which has been thrust upon as a garment, so that when God looks at us He does not see our sin, but Christ's righteousness. That's not the kind of "righteousness" which God requires of us. He wants the real thing.

I believe His righteousness is the real thing... He requires it and He provides it in His Son.

Yes? You quoted this for what purpose?

HE brings us to God.

Taken in isolation, this passage could be interpreted as you seem to do. I think the writer was trying to emphasize that, unlike the Hebrew animal sacrifices, Jesus needed to be sacrificed only once. The passage cannot mean that those who are sanctified have been perfected for all time in the sense that they have arrived, and need no further growth. Rather, the sacrifice of Christ doesn't work for only a year, and then has to be done all over again. It was good for all time! For wasn't the apostle Paul sanctified? Yet he wrote:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Philppians 3:7-14/color]

Taken in isolation? This passage speaks to Jesus being a priest on our behalf.

I believe no one who lives on earth has arrived- our righteousness is credited and we wait for what we hope for, otherwise it wouldn't be hope (Romans 8). However, we have been born again and are a new creation in Christ. We still work out our salvation (faith) in Christ, but we are as pure as He is pure with the hope of the Gospel (1 John 3:1-3). We are credited righteousness as we live by faith- HIS righteousness... real righteousness. (Galatians 3:11, Romans 3:22)

The LDS faith states that they are saved by grace after "all you can do". They also believe that imputed righteousness is a wicked idea. The idea of righteousness given to us as a gift they call absurd. What distinguishes our faith from theirs? What truly satisfies a completely just and jealous God?

[steve7150]

I believe no one who lives on earth has arrived- our righteousness is credited and we wait for what we hope for, otherwise it wouldn't be hope (Romans 8). However, we have been born again and are a new creation in Christ. We still work out our salvation (faith) in Christ, but we are as pure as He is pure with the hope of the Gospel (1 John 3:1-3). We are credited righteousness as we live by faith- HIS righteousness... real righteousness. (Galatians 3:11, Romans 3:22)







I agree that what separates Christianity from every other religion is the imputed righteousness a believer receives through Christ and it should be this indescribable gift that then motivates us to emulate him. If we mentally acknowledge this gift but then don't try to become like him, then we have not received this gift in our heart and we remain lost IMHO.

[Paidion]

I agree that what separates Christianity from every other religion is the imputed righteousness a believer receives through Christ and it should be this indescribable gift that then motivates us to emulate him. If we mentally acknowledge this gift but then don't try to become like him, then we have not received this gift in our heart and we remain lost IMHO.

What happened to simple, child-like faith? I have known many young children who have entrusted themselves to Christ. Do you think that if they do not mentally acknowledge the "gift of imputed righteousness", and if they die before they are mature enough to understand it, they will go to hell?

[steve7150]

What happened to simple, child-like faith? I have known many young children who have entrusted themselves to Christ. Do you think that if they do not mentally acknowledge the "gift of imputed righteousness", and if they die before they are mature enough to understand it, they will go to hell?







I think either God would deem them innocent or perhaps by entrusting themselves to Christ they have believed in his imputed righteousness and Lordship to the extent they are capable.

[dseusy]

Steve7150 wrote:
I agree that what separates Christianity from every other religion is the imputed righteousness a believer receives through Christ and it should be this indescribable gift that then motivates us to emulate him. If we mentally acknowledge this gift but then don't try to become like him, then we have not received this gift in our heart and we remain lost IMHO.

Doesn't having His righteousness imputed to us make us like Him? His power is made perfect in weakness. When we are weak we are strong.

Does this come about as we diligently walk a narrow path, or as He has made us pure by this hope which is within us do we find ourselves on the narrow path because of what Jesus did on our behalf?

I believe by grace, through faith, we are slaves of righteousness.

"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:17-23

[steve7150]

Doesn't having His righteousness imputed to us make us like Him? His power is made perfect in weakness. When we are weak we are strong.

Does this come about as we diligently walk a narrow path, or as He has made us pure by this hope which is within us do we find ourselves on the narrow path because of what Jesus did on our behalf?




My understanding is that in a certain way we are like him meaning our "spirit man" is righteous through this imputed righteousness and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but in a different way we are wretched men striving to become like him in our flesh.
I think that's what Rom 7 is about, that Paul simultaneously is a wretched man in his flesh , yet he is able to say "there is no condemnation in Christ."
If Rom 7 were about Paul before he became a believer he would never call himself "a wretched man" because virtually all unbelievers think they are nice people and not wretched at all. Only believers recognize the true state of man.

[dseusy]

Steve7150,

I agree... do you think it's possible to strive like Mary vs. like Martha? If so, what would it look like?

[Paidion]

In Romans 7, Paul may not talkling about himself at all. He may be talking about the person who does not have the enabling grace of God to give him the ability to overcome wrongdoing. Then in Romans 8, he speaks of the victory a disciple has, one who appropriates the enabling grace of God through faith — the grace that was made available to us through the magnificent sacrifice of Christ on our behalf. Or he may be talking about himself before he received God's grace to overcome wrongdoing.

In keeping with the latter understanding, here is an allegory concerning my poor handwriting that corresponds to verses 12-25 and 1-3 in Chapters 7 and 8. It may help someone to understand what Paul is getting at:

Chapter 7
12.Handwriting is important, and instruction in it is good.
13.So did that which is good cause my illegible handwriting? No way. It was the natural lack within me (perhaps my left-handedness and my lack of artistic talent) which made the scrawl come out, through the good instruction, in order that my poor handwriting truly be shown to be a scrawl, and through the handwriting instruction given to me, shown to be what it really is,absolutely illegible.
14. know that handwriting instruction is good. But I am a scrawler.
15. I do not understand my own actions.
16. For I do not write the way I want, but I write the very way that I hate. Now even though I do not write the way I want, I agree that the handwriting instruction I received was good.
17. So then it is not that I do it deliberately, but that weakness that dwells within me is the cause.
18. For I know that no ability for handwriting dwells within me. I can will to write beautifully, but I cannot do it.
19. For I do not write the way I want, but the illegible scrawl that I do not want, is what I do.
20. Now if I scrawl in a way I don't want, it is not I doing it deliberately, but the lack of skill within me.
21. So I find it to be a law of my nature, that when I want to write beautifully, an ugly scrawl comes out.
22. For in my inmost self, I delight in the thought of writing beautifully and legibly,
23. But I see in my nature another law at war with the law of my mental desire, making me captive to my weakness and my illegible handwriting.
24. Wretched man that I am! What can deliver me from this inability to write legibly?
25. Thank God for my computer! So then, I of myself (without my computer), write beautifully and legibly with my mind, but with my hand, I write an illegible scrawl.

Chapter 8
1. There is now no criticism for those who write documents using a word processor and printer.
2. For the power of the word processor in my computer has set me free from the law of my incapable hand.
3. For the computer has done what handwriting instruction weakened by my inability could not do; by means of a word processor and printer, it did away with
my illegible scrawl, in order that the requirements for writing documents may be fulfilled in us who write not with our incapable hands, but with a word processor and printer.

[steve7150]

In Romans 7, Paul may not talkling about himself at all. He may be talking about the person who does not have the enabling grace of God to give him the ability to overcome wrongdoing.







Paidion,
Jesus said we should love others as we love ourselves so i think Jesus default position about the unsaved was that they already love themselves. As i mentioned knowing that Paul was aware of Jesus teachings i think it unlikely he would portray himself as wretched while he was unsaved. I think he sees himself as wretched because he is saved and like Isaiah realizes how dirty and sinful he really is without Christ.

[steve7150]

Steve7150,

I agree... do you think it's possible to strive like Mary vs. like Martha? If so, what would it look like?dseusy





Dseusy,
Sorry i was very busy till the 15th. I'm not really the right person to ask because i'm a work in progress and i have no special insight. However since Mary sought the more needful thing i think we can too. The thing that comes to my mind are (Rom 12) renewing our minds, seeking what is lovely, resting in Christ, receiving his peace, meditating on the beautitudes and most of all, seeking the kingdom of God first and then all these other things will come.