God raised God from the dead?

[Pierac]

RND I frequently hear people tell me that the Trinity exist in the O.T. because of the word Elohim. They happily tell me it's a plural word, and thus contains the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one word. My studies however, have proven different.

Evidently.

I never said the "Trinity" is represented in the word "elohiym" you again just made that assumption. And yet the "Godhead" is expressly evident in Genesis 1.

I never said you did, only that I frequently hear people tell me that! Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I was just explaining the meaning of "elohiym" as you brought the word to light.

[Pierac]

Just what did you mean by "us" and "our"?

US?

When God says "let us make man in our image" are we being taught that the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together creating human beings? How is it that when some read this statement their minds immediately think of "let us three"? The verse says nothing about God speaking to the Son or to the Holy Spirit. It simply says that God addressed someone else or some others than Himself. The "us" could refer to just one other, or to many others. But who is this someone or who are these others to whom God speaks here?

The "us" and "our" are expressed in relation to the usage of the "plural" elohiym that were speaking and in that there really is no Hebrew "us" or "our."

The phrase "Let us make..." is the singular Hebrew word `asah which has a whole complex litany of usage and meaning in the Hebrew.

The Hebrews understood that God addressed His heavenly court, the angelic host and that He allowed them to watch his master-work in creating mankind unfold. This is quite reasonable, for there are other times when God involves the angels in His work. In Isaiah 6, God is seen in His Heavenly temple with the cherubs and all the heavenly court. There God asks, "Whom shall I send, and whom will go for us?" (v.8). It is certainly the case in 1 Kings 22:19-20 where the Lord is seen "sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left" and he asked the heavenly court '"who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' And one said this while the other said that."

Let's return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.

Messianic Jews would have a difference of opinion with you especially considered the plurality of the Shema. Jesus chided Nicodemus, a Master of Israel, for not understanding the "plurality" of the Godhead. In that sense we can obviously see that there is more than "one" Hebrew understanding of Genesis 1:26.

I would research their understanding further to hopefully gain a different perspective that that of just orthodox Hebrews.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, here is our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. He will settle this issue for us.
In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (the Father) created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning" but a single person He! Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and He is also telling us that God (Father) Created all from the beginning.

Why would you think Jesus wasn't speaking of Himself in the third person with respect to the scripture He is noting? Also, did you miss that "he" is not included in the ordinal text in Mathew 19:4? Interesting in that the article representing "he" is almost always used in connection with the "plural."

Something to think about.

Context RND, context

ESV Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

Now what God could Jesus be possibly talking about?

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

RND this is the God Jesus speaks of in Mark 13:19 the one referred to in Gen 1... Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Paul

[RND]

I never said you did, only that I frequently hear people tell me that! Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I was just expalining the meaning of "elohiym" as you brought the word to light.

Oh, that's cool, I accept that you were insinuating! You seem to do that quite a bit.

[RND]

[Context RND, context

ESV Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

Now what God could Jesus be possibly talking about?

Theos, divinity, the Godhead.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... CECE83D3B1

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'

Was Jesus saying, He is MY God" or was He referring to those that called God "Our God?"

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Reference to "my God" being the same as "my Father?"

RND this is the God Jesus speaks of in Mark 13:19 the one referred to in Gen 1... Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

So? I and my Father are what?

[Pierac]

I never said you did, only that I frequently hear people tell me that! Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I was just expalining the meaning of "elohiym" as you brought the word to light.

Oh, that's cool, I accept that you were insinuating! You seem to do that quite a bit.

Yes, that is probably one of my weaknesses

[Pierac]

[Context RND, context

ESV Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

Now what God could Jesus be possibly talking about?

Theos, divinity, the Godhead.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... CECE83D3B1

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'

Was Jesus saying, He is MY God" or was He referring to those that called God "Our God?"

BTW, I could not get your link to work. The page remains blank and my browser reads ‘done’ at the bottom left corner?

I would say Jesus referring to “our” would match scripture the best, as Jesus on many occasions both before and after His resurrection spoke of such. ( Mark 15:34, John 8:42, John 20:17, Rev 3:2, Rev 3:12 ).

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Reference to "my God" being the same as "my Father?"

RND this is the God Jesus speaks of in Mark 13:19 the one referred to in Gen 1... Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

So? I and my Father are what?

I and my Father are of one mind and Spirit, just like he prayed his apostles would be!

Joh 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

Paul

[Paidion]

RND, you have quoted several times Jesus statement that He and the Father are one. If I'm not mistaken you also quoted Jesus words, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." Do you understand from this that Jesus is saying that He and the Father are one and the same Individual? If so, how can Jesus pray to the Father as to another Person? Was He talking to Himself?

Secondly, if Jesus is the same Individual as the Father, how would you explain the first part of Jesus' prayer to His Father as recorded in John 17:

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

RND, in this prayer, Jesus addresses His Father as "the only true God". If the Father is the only true God, how can Jesus also be true God?

Besides, by use of he conjuction "AND", before "Jesus Christ whom you have sent", Jesus indicates that He is something other than "true God". Othewise, He would have said, "that they may know you, the only true God INCLUDING Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

[RND]

RND, you have quoted several times Jesus statement that He and the Father are one. If I'm not mistaken you also quoted Jesus words, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." Do you understand from this that Jesus is saying that He and the Father are one and the same Individual? If so, how can Jesus pray to the Father as to another Person? Was He talking to Himself?

No, I see this as evidence that Jesus and the Father were of one mind and one purpose.

Secondly, if Jesus is the same Individual as the Father, how would you explain the first part of Jesus' prayer to His Father as recorded in John 17:

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

RND, in this prayer, Jesus addresses His Father as "the only true God". If the Father is the only true God, how can Jesus also be true God?

Because the Father and the Son are of like mind in purpose and desire. Jesus always existed and was with God, not as a created being but as the self-evident nature and character of the Father. On earth, Christ was one with the Father in purpose and desire in the form of a human being. In the heavenly realm Christ was one with the Father in purpose and desire in the form of God.

If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity. God over all, blessed forevermore. {5BC 1126.4}

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. This was no robbery of God [Prov. 8:22-27 quoted]. {5BC 1126.5}

There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was One with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light unapproachable and incomprehensible (RH April 5, 1906). {5BC 1126.6}

The apostle would call our attention from ourselves to the Author of our salvation. He presents before us His two natures, divine and human. Here is the description of the divine: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." He was "the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." {5BC 1126.7}

Now, of the human: He "was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death." He voluntarily assumed human nature. It was His own act, and by His own consent. He clothed His divinity with humanity. He was all the while as God, but He did not appear as God. He veiled the demonstrations of Deity, which had commanded the homage, and called forth the admiration, of the universe of God. He was God while upon earth, but He divested Himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of a man. He walked the earth as a man. For our sakes He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. He laid aside His glory and His majesty. He was God, but the glories of the form of God He for a while relinquished. Though He walked among men in poverty, scattering His blessings wherever He went, at His word legions of angels would surround their Redeemer, and do Him homage. But He walked the earth unrecognized, unconfessed, with but few exceptions, by His creatures. The atmosphere was polluted with sin and curses, in place of the anthem of praise. His lot was poverty and humiliation. As He passed to and fro upon His mission of mercy to relieve the sick, to lift up the depressed, scarce a solitary voice called Him blessed, and the very greatest of the nation passed Him by with disdain. {5BC 1126.8}

Contrast this with the riches of glory, the wealth of praise pouring forth from immortal tongues, the millions of rich voices in the universe of God in anthems of adoration. But He humbled Himself, and took mortality upon Him. As a member of the human family, He was mortal; but as a God, He was the fountain of life to the world. He could, in His divine person, ever have withstood the advances of death, and refused to come under its dominion; but He voluntarily laid down His life, that in so doing He might give life and bring immortality to light. He bore the sins of the world, and endured the penalty, which rolled like a mountain upon His divine soul. He yielded up His life a sacrifice, that man should not eternally die. He died, not through being compelled to die, but by His own free will. This was humility. The whole treasure of heaven was poured out in one gift to save fallen man. He brought into His human nature all the life-giving energies that human beings will need and must receive. {5BC 1127.1}

Wondrous combination of man and God! He might have helped His human nature to withstand the inroads of disease by pouring from His divine nature vitality and undecaying vigor to the human. But He humbled Himself to man's nature. He did this that the Scripture might be fulfilled; and the plan was entered into by the Son of God, knowing all the steps in His humiliation, that He must descend to make an expiation for the sins of a condemned, groaning world. What humility was this! It amazed angels. The tongue can never describe it; the imagination cannot take it in. The eternal Word consented to be made flesh! God became man! It was a wonderful humility. {5BC 1127.2}

But He stepped still lower; the man must humble Himself as a man to bear insult, reproach, shameful accusations, and abuse. There seemed to be no safe place for Him in His own territory. He had to flee from place to place for His life. He was betrayed by one of His disciples; He was denied by one of His most zealous followers. He was mocked. He was crowned with a crown of thorns. He was scourged. He was forced to bear the burden of the cross. He was not insensible to this contempt and ignominy. He submitted, but, oh! He felt the bitterness as no other being could feel it. He was pure, holy, and undefiled, yet arraigned as a criminal! The adorable Redeemer stepped down from the highest exaltation. Step by step He humbled Himself to die--but what a death! It was the most shameful, the most cruel the death upon the cross as a malefactor. He did not die as a hero in the eyes of the world, loaded with honors, as men in battle. He died as a condemned criminal, suspended between the heavens and the earth--died a lingering death of shame, exposed to the tauntings and revilings of a debased, crime-loaded, profligate multitude! "All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head." Ps. 22:7. He was numbered with the transgressors, He expired amid derision, and His kinsmen according to the flesh disowned Him. His mother beheld His humiliation, and He was forced to see the sword pierce her heart. He endured the cross, despised the shame. He made it of small account in consideration of the results that He was working out in behalf of, not only the inhabitants of this speck of a world, but the whole universe, every world which God had created. {5BC 1127.3}

Christ was to die as man's substitute. Man was a criminal under the sentence of death for transgression of the law of God, as a traitor, a rebel; hence a substitute for man must die as a malefactor, because He stood in the place of the traitors, with all their treasured sins upon His divine soul. It was not enough that Jesus should die in order to fully meet the demands of the broken law, but He died a shameful death. The prophet gives to the world His words, "I hid not my face from shame and spitting. {5BC 1127.4}

In consideration of this, can men have one particle of exaltation? As they trace down the life and sufferings and humiliation of Christ, can they lift their proud heads as if they were to bear no trials, no shame, no humiliation? I say to the followers of Christ, Look to Calvary, and blush for shame at your self-important ideas. All this humiliation of the Majesty of heaven was for guilty, condemned man. He went lower and lower in His humiliation, until there were no lower depths that He could reach, in order to lift man up from his moral defilement. All this was for you who are striving for the supremacy--striving for human praise, for human exaltation; you who are afraid you will not receive all that deference, that respect from human minds, that you think is your due. Is this Christlike? {5BC 1127.5}

Besides, by use of he conjuction "AND", before "Jesus Christ whom you have sent", Jesus indicates that He is something other than "true God". Othewise, He would have said, "that they may know you, the only true God INCLUDING Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

That's one man's opinion. Mine is built on the understanding that Jesus on earth was indeed God, but set aside His divinity and position for the expressed purpose of demonstrating how man can relate, interact, and commune with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holt Spirit.

BTW Paidon, you made this comment on another thread:

Paul, it would be good scholarship on your part if you would actually READ my post! If you do that, you would know that I didn't make the ego eimi argument to try to prove that Jesus is God the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is God the Father. Although I do believe He and His Father share the name "Yahweh", They are two different divine Individuals. I am quite aware that ego eimi is used in many different ways and that Jesus isn't using it here to indicate that He is the "Great I am" of the Old Testament. So your reply does not address my post in any way. Yes, you used it for RND, and it was appropriate to do so. But I am a different person from RND, and have not in any way appealed to the ego eimi argument.

I'm in complete agreement that Jesus is God, just not the Father. Where you may have assumed I believed differently is anyone's guess. I do not see the idea of "I AM" as being associated with the existence of the Father as much as the existence of "self-evidence." There is a rather large disconnect going on here and I'm assuming it's yours.

[Jill]

.

[dean198]

I do not believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father, and I also believe that it was God the Father who raised up Jesus Christ from the dead by the power of the Holy ghost.

In a small group one sunday I mentioned that I believed that it was God the Father who had raised up His only begotten Son from the dead. Another member in the group disagreed and said that he believed that Jesus Christ had raised himself from the dead, to then ascended to the Father. I just do not read it that way. I still believe that God the Father raised up Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son (in the flesh) from the dead.

The Bible always says the Father did it, except in one place where Jesus says "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up'. But in light of the very many other passages that say the Father did it, I take Jesus' words to mean he would raise up his body when the Father gives him life - in other words, he didn't say he would raise himself from the dead.