How do we stay in Christ?

[Ian]

Also helpful. Thanks.

[dseusy]

TK,

I am concerned about the believer's joy, sincere love, and freedom.

Out of care for those who either bear a great burden to be righteous, or those who water down the righteous requirement and, consequentially, water down the joy of freedom- I ask, "How do we stay in Christ?"

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom... if we work like Martha, we are missing what is needed and will likely love largely out of our own strength and receive His love as our pride approves. Since pride isn't based on truth, it would be a shame to receive this "approval" without God's.

However, if we are in Him, where there is no sin, and we are convinced we are a new creation in Him- we know we are righteous and have His favor.

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14

Hosea 10:12, Philippians 3:9, Galatians 3:21-29

"For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD, You surround him with favor as with a shield." Psalm 5:12

[Michelle]

dseusy,

I admire your concern for your brothers and sisters in Christ who may be robbed of their joy by believing that they are saved by grace but also believe they can only remain saved by working like crazy in sinless perfection. Your care is made even more touching considering the account on your blog of steering wheel pounding frustration that you, yourself, experienced before developing your explanation of what it means to be in Christ. In addition, I've got to admire your perseverance in bringing this thread back to your original question after pages of scholarly insight vs. anti-intellectualism interspersed with jokes.

Your question, "How do we stay in Christ?" obviously isn't the cry of your heart; you've already figured that out. You're attempting to elicit a response that will trigger another blast of your wall-o-scripture technique in order to promote your view. It seems like you expect someone, perhaps a forum regular or perhaps a lurking guest, to answer with, "Well, gee, dseusy, now that you mention it, I guess we stay in Christ by being sinlessly perfect." Who here has argued for that? You've been working to get your point across for three months, but no one is arguing against the righteousness of Christ being imputed to believers. Frankly, while I agree with your emphasis on imputed righteousness, I find your dichotomous diagram and your claim that the body/flesh is outside of Christ to be a little problematic (yet not troublesome enough to argue with you about it.)

See, I can't actually answer your question because it doesn't fit into the way I look at things or how I live my life. The question, "How do we stay in Christ?" appears to me to be akin to asking how one remains a member in good standing of some sort of social club. I don't see my life in Christ as any kind of club membership type of situation, so the question makes no sense. The better question, I believe, is: "How do we refrain from continually sinning?" And the answer is: "Abide in Christ."

[Ian]

anti-intellectualism

That`s a little strong, Michelle. Anyone of that ilk would avoid both this forum and Steve`s radio show altogether rather than click on them daily like probably nearly all of us here do.

I don`t want to denigrate scholarly research but neither am I going to put it on a pedestal either. 32 scholars were involved in the making of the RSV version but they didn`t see it correct to write "keeps on sinning" as the NIV version has it for 1 John 3 v6. Maybe that`s committees for you.

[Michelle]

anti-intellectualism

That`s a little strong, Michelle.

I apologize, Ian, I didn't mean to offend.

dseusy said:

I can understand being sharpened by another man, but I don't believe passing all truth through the intelligent guarantees gleaning the best spiritual truth.

and

I think we can get lost in the intellectual side of it (since much of the intellectual thought is based on knowledge which puffs up and actually takes us farther from spiritual truths) but knowledge is certainly a component of wisdom.

And you said:

(maybe the "things that are revealed to them" are not particularly theological in nature? For example a simple man looks at a flower and sees a creator behind it while the university professor does not).

These statements struck me as being dismissive toward intellectual pursuit (it puffs up, leads away from the best spiritual truth, and blinds the university professor to God revealed in nature) for which I used the term anti-intellectualism. Perhaps you could give me a more gentle term for this posture?

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread further. I would love it if dseusy would answer his own question posed in the OP and throughout the discussion.

[Ian]

No problem, Michelle. I`ll get my revenge by inflicting another time-lapse on you!

I don`t think there`s a single word to describe my stance, particularly as that stance fluctuates according to how much blood sugar is reaching my brain at any one time!

Back to dseusy...

[Michelle]

No problem, Michelle. I`ll get my revenge by inflicting another time-lapse on you!

Please! I love your work!




dseusy....

[TK]

Michelle wrote:

Your question, "How do we stay in Christ?" obviously isn't the cry of your heart; you've already figured that out. You're attempting to elicit a response that will trigger another blast of your wall-o-scripture technique in order to promote your view.

Not to gang up on dseusy, but I certainly agree. This was/is a favorite tactic of our friend Mellontes in the eschatology section of the forum.

I guess I am not a huge fan of trick or "set-up" questions in a forum context. Legitimate questions are fine. I ask a lot of them.

TK

[dseusy]

Michelle wrote:
Your question, "How do we stay in Christ?" obviously isn't the cry of your heart; you've already figured that out. You're attempting to elicit a response that will trigger another blast of your wall-o-scripture technique in order to promote your view.

You're right in stating this happens, but my motive is less about promoting my view or blasting people with scripture and more about wanting brothers and sisters to rest in Him- approaching His throne with the confidence and assurance His promises can produce. I believe this empowers us to be sincerely humble, willingly vulnerable (boasting in our weakness, which is contrary to the practice of most "religious" circles), and deeply caring.

I believe the view I have is Love (God) (in part, of course), and what else is worth promoting?

TK & Michelle,

My technique isn't some kind of manipulative tactic to dupe people into seeing things my way for the sake of winning the "forumer of the month" award... I want to (in the most loving way possible) cause a deep inquiry of why we do what we do which I hope ends in people being spurred to draw nearer to God with confidence in His Son, instead of the confidence which comes from ourselves.

Jesus asked questions and elicited responses to trigger truth in love...

Matthew 21:25; 22:42-45; 11:7-10; 15:3-4

TK, you mentioned it is the forum context which is the issue- I guess I thought of the forum as a place to have a long distance conversation... I'm still kind of new to forums, so I'm probably missing something here- I would be happy to do it differently. Any suggestions?

[dseusy]

Michelle wrote:
Frankly, while I agree with your emphasis on imputed righteousness, I find your dichotomous diagram and your claim that the body/flesh is outside of Christ to be a little problematic

I find trying to get my flesh in Christ a little problematic. Actually, a lot problematic. However, He lives in it, so there is still a connection...

Michelle wrote:
"How do we refrain from continually sinning?" And the answer is: "Abide in Christ."

I'm glad you brought this up... I think I skipped a step. Your question, "how do we refrain from continually sinning?" is a much better place to start. Eventually I think we will ask the question, "how do I abide?", but I think you picked a better starting point. Thank you.