Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by Paidion » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:59 pm

Candlepower wrote:Does scripture require us to acknowledge that Jesus was able to sin, or is that a requirement some theologians and philosophers have placed on Him? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall a passage that requires us to accept the notion that He was been able to sin.

There are passages that tell us He was tempted, and passages that tell us He was without sin. There are verses that tell us he was made in the fashion of a human. We know that He was born and that He died, as humans do. It seems fair to assume that in every way biological He was like us. But are we anywhere told He was able to sin?
What would it mean for Jesus to be tempted, if it were not possible for Him to sin? That would be no temptation at all!

It is not possible for an earthworm to sin. Would it have any meaning to affirm that an earthworm could be tempted to sin? Ludicrous.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Candlepower
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by Candlepower » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:51 pm

Hello Paidion,

A) I agree with you that it would be ludicrous to assert that an earthworm could sin, or even could be tempted to sin. Same with any non-human earthly creature, and any inanimate object.

B) I agree with you that it seems logical that Jesus’ temptation would be meaningless if He were not able to fall to temptation.

C) You may have noticed that I have waffled a bit on this forum as I have tried to reach a conclusion about this matter of whether or not Jesus could sin.

D) My problem has been that because I see Jesus as God, I could not see how God could sin, since Scripture clearly indicates God can’t sin. Therefore, I felt compelled to conclude that Jesus' temptations were not akin to ours. Because God cannot be tempted, this led me to surmise that perhaps the temptations to which Jesus was subjected might have been tests to prove that He could not sin, rather than tests to discover if He might sin. (I used the locomotive on the railroad-bridge analogy).

E) The discussion on this thread has caused me to re-look into Scripture concerning this subject. In the process, I came again across James 1:13 (“God cannot be tempted with evil…”). I’ve read James several times, but it wasn’t until this discussion came up that I saw the pertinence (I think) of James 1:13 in terms of this topic. That verse informs me that if Jesus (during His earthly walk) was God and solely God (without humanity), then He could not have been tempted. But we clearly know that Jesus was tempted. On some previous post, I told Benstenson that James 1:13 may have solved this dilemma for me, because it makes it impossible for Jesus (in His humanity) to be God. God cannot be tempted; Jesus (in some way) was tempted; therefore Jesus, humanly, was not God.

F) Several things seem clearer to me now. 1) Jesus’ humanity was truly distinct from His deity. There was no blending, otherwise in some way God would have been tempted, which is impossible. 2) Jesus was completely human in every way; therefore, His temptations must have been genuinely like ours. 3) But unlike us (and because of His being Spirit-filled and perfectly submitted to the Heavenly Father) Jesus consistently overcame temptations and always chose not to sin. 4) As long as Jesus remained filled and submitted, He was immune from sin, though subject to temptation, to which (it seems) He could have chosen to surrender. If He could not have chosen, then it seems He was not really fashioned like us. In His humanity, Jesus single-handedly did what Adam and Adam’s race have not. 5) Simultaneous with being truly human, however, Jesus was (and is, and ever shall be) truly God (Col. 2:9; Isaiah 9:6). 6) Like “eternity” and “infinity,” Jesus’ duality of natures is, to me, an unfathomable mystery. We are told He was Emmanuel.

G) So, I conclude that, speaking of His humanity, Jesus was tempted and could have sinned, but never did. In terms of His deity, however, Jesus cannot be tempted, much less sin. Seen one way, Jesus could have sinned; seen another way, He could not. Jesus’ dual nature solves the issue (for me) about whether or not He was actually tempted and whether or not He could have actually sinned. It has Scriptural support and seems to me to make good sense. We see Jesus described as God, and we see Him described as a man.

By the way, I looked up your code name (Paidion) in an online Greek dictionary and discovered what it means. I see its connection to Matt. 18:2-5. I bet you already knew that, didn’t you? :D What a great name!

Candlepower

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benstenson
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by benstenson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:45 pm

bump

Candlepower did you see my reply to you on the previous page? I explained how God's "iron will" can be (and logically should be) understood as a result of choice/commitment and not inability or a lack of self control.
Candlepower wrote:..Jesus was tempted and could have sinned
..Jesus cannot be tempted, much less sin.

..Jesus could have sinned
..He could not.
This must be both true and false at the same time? According to its truth-nature it is true, but according to its falsehood-nature it is false? I am forced to agree and disagree.
We see Jesus described as God, and we see Him described as a man.
There is a difference between 'who' someone is and 'what' someone is. 'Who' you are is called your identity. 'What' you are is called your nature. When Jesus became a man, He changed 'what' He was, but not 'who' He was. Jesus' nature changed, but His identity did not change.

Jesus' nature became completely human when He became a man. He stopped being divine in His nature, His attributes, His form. He completely changed into a man. 'What' He was changed completely to become like us.

But 'who' Jesus is never changed. He was still the same divine person that He was before. Jesus was always the same divine person in identity. Jesus' identity did not change at all. It couldn't.

Jesus was not simultaneously divine and human in His nature. That is a contradiction, not a mysterious truth. The Bible says to "test all things". The only way to do this is by realizing that something is wrong when we have a contradiction. One of the underlying assumptions or teachings must be wrong. If contradictions don't mean that something is wrong then there is no way to test doctrine as we should. It is possible for our underlying assumptions to be wrong, but it is not possible for a contradiction to represent reality.
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

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benstenson
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by benstenson » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:35 am

Hi Candlepower, It's been a while since I heard from you so I wanted to say I hope I didn't write anything that offended you. I hope you are well. ~Ben
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

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Paidion
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:50 pm

Ben, your belief that Jesus became fully human, and retained only His identity is also what I believe. I have never before encountered anyone else who sees it that way.

Did you come to this conclusion from your own studies, or are you with a church which holds this belief?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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charleswest
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by charleswest » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:17 am

Paidion wrote:Ben, your belief that Jesus became fully human, and retained only His identity is also what I believe. I have never before encountered anyone else who sees it that way.

Did you come to this conclusion from your own studies, or are you with a church which holds this belief?
I think I'm on board as well..

Jesus relied on the Holy Sprit and His Father for supernatural needs...
i.e.
"But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." Luke 11:20
and
"...Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" Matt 26:53
plus
"but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men." Philemon 2:7

YET, Jesus always knew He was the eternal Son of God.
"Before Abraham was, I Am" John 8:58
“I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views... ” Abraham Lincoln. Excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley. 22 August 1862
= = = =
Be Blessed. We Are Loved...
cw

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Perry
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by Perry » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:12 am

benstenson wrote:on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:45 pm
I won't re-quote the whole post here, only say that it's an excellent post. I don't think there's anything "new" in it for me, but it's really helping me clarify my thinking on the subject. It's very well articulated... thanks.

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benstenson
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by benstenson » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:58 pm

Paidion wrote:Ben, your belief that Jesus became fully human, and retained only His identity is also what I believe. I have never before encountered anyone else who sees it that way.

Did you come to this conclusion from your own studies, or are you with a church which holds this belief?
This belief developed during my own studies, not from a congregation. I probably became convinced of this over the past two years, but more so recently. I'm sure some of the men I work with are open to this idea. I think at least one would definitely agree if I asked him about.

It is really encouraging for me to see you and others agree. I couldn't even find this view when I was researching so-called "Christology".
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

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benstenson
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by benstenson » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:09 pm

Perry wrote:
benstenson wrote:on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:45 pm
I don't think there's anything "new" in it for me, but it's really helping me clarify my thinking on the subject.
I'm glad it is helpful. I wasn't really sure how to articulate it until I sat down and tried to do it. Most of these ideas are fairly new to me.
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

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darinhouston
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Re: Virgin Birth - Original Sin (Christ)

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:54 pm

I tend to agree as well.

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