Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

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Homer
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Homer » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:47 am

Hi Paidion,

3Resurrections wrote:
You bring up John 17:3 quite often, I notice, in asserting that the "only true God" is in addition to Jesus Christ in that verse. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." A question: what if the word "and" (kai) in that phrase doesn't actually mean "in addition to", but uses its alternate Greek definition, meaning "namely"? It would then read this way: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, NAMELY Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
To which you replied:
I have studied Helenistic Greek for many years, and have never encountered any lexicon that gives the translation of "και" as "namely." Nor does any translation so render it. However, some lexicons give "even" as a possible translation, and so that word would have the same effect as your proposed "namely." I recall that a United Pentecostal minister friend of mine, used "even" in the translation of John 17:3. For that church is modalist (they call it "oneness"), believing that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, I disbelieve that "και" ever means "even." I believe that Jesus (as recorded in John 17:3) addressed His Father as "the only true God" and with that little word "και" indicated that He was Someone other than the only true God.
I must say I am very surprised at your statement. I do not know which lexicons you refer to but both Thayer and Bauer give "namely" as a possible translation of kai. Additional translations can be "that is", "and so", "and yet", "also", and "likewise" among others.

Both Thayer and Bauer state that kai is often explicative; i.e. the purpose of what follows kai is to explain what was said before.

Some examples from scripture:

John 10:33 (NASB)
33. The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”


Here kai connects the claim of blasphemy to the kind of blasphemy.

1 Corinthians 2:2 (NASB)
2. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.


And here kai connects to Christ what it was that that made Him worthy of Paul's knowing. What follows kai is explicative of what proceeded.

Matthew 8:33 (NASB)
33. The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, including what had happened to the demoniacs.


In this case kai connects an explanation of what their running away involved.

This, of course, does not mean "namely" is the correct translation of kai in John 17:3 but it doesn't rule out some such meaning. 3Resurrections did not error in saying namely was a possible translation.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:56 am

Hi Paidion,

A few verses where "kai" means even or namely (as Strong lists it).

Revelation 1:7 (YLT) - "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even (kai) those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!" This verse shows that it would be specifically the tribes of the land of Israel, "even" (or namely) those who had pierced Christ who would be the ones seeing Christ's physical return at that time. Which they did in AD 70, in fulfillment of Luke 13:24-30.

James 3:9 (KJV) - Therewith bless we God, even (kai) the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God." Mankind who was made in the image of God, "even" (or namely) the Father, has the audacity to curse our fellow man, who shared that same image when the Father created us.

I Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV) - "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even (kai) our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." At the coming of the Lord, the believers would stand in holiness before God, "even" (or namely) the Father.

Acts 26:11 (KJV) - "And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even (kai) unto strange cities." Saul's manner of hatred for the saints led him to persecute them, "even" (or namely) unto strange cities.

Matthew 13:12 (KJV) - "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even (kai) that he hath." What would be taken away was "even" (or namely) what he had.


As an aside, Paidion, you may have already addressed the following set of verses on the forum somewhere else, but how do you exegete Psalms 90:1-2 when compared with Hebrews 1:2 and John 1:1-3, if you believe that the Son "made the worlds", and that "without him" (without The Word) "was not anything made that was made"? Psalms 90:2 states who made the earth and the world. "LORD thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hast formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

Since that same world was made (proleptically) by "The Son" manifesting as "The Word" at creation, then Psalms 90:2 states that the Creator who made that world was "from everlasting to everlasting" - as God. I read that the Hebrew uses "olam" in this case to express eternality in both directions, coming and going; meaning that The Word (later manifested as The Son at incarnation) had that inherent essence of eternality. This would mean that the second person of the Godhead had that quality of timelessness that describes The Father.

Not trying to badger you Paidion. I'm waiting for drapery workroom orders for a whole house to arrive, and in the meantime, I enjoy exchanging thoughts with anyone who is obliging enough to respond, whether pro or con. :) In case you are wondering, the husband's position is that of a staunch "Eternal Sonship" advocate. Don't agree with him that the title of The Son always applied to the second person of the Godhead, but we leave the subject alone for the sake of maintaining a relatively peaceful stalemate. That goes for my variety of Preterism, too, which he can't abide. Conversation on religious topics is pretty stunted most of the time, but that's better than open discord, especially with his health concerns.


For Singalphile too,

About God having the description of "Father", even before the incarnation of the second person of the Godhead, Jesus the Son; we have Adam who was called "The son of God" in the day of his creation, as in the genealogy of Luke 3:38, "...the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." This identifies God as a Father, even if we don't wish to consider the created angels the "sons of God", as Job 38:7 called them from the time of creation.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:13 pm

Ooops, I forgot one REALLY important verse example of the word "kai" NOT meaning "in addition to".

John 3:5 (KJV) - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and (kai) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The baptismal regeneration adherents would like to believe the word "kai" here means "in addition to". It would then seem to say that water baptism PLUS the Spirit is necessary to assure eternal salvation. (Tough luck for the Zealot thief on the cross that Jesus promised a union in Paradise with Him.)

But if the "kai" word is used in the explanatory sense in this John 3:5 verse, it would read, "...Except a man be born of water even (or namely) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The "water" thereby acting as the symbolic equivalent to the Spirit put within a person - the "rivers of living water" springing out of a person's belly that Jesus identified as the Spirit, which those that believed would receive (John 7:38-39).

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Singalphile » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:48 pm

3Resurrections wrote:For Singalphile too,

About God having the description of "Father", even before the incarnation of the second person of the Godhead, Jesus the Son; we have Adam who was called "The son of God" in the day of his creation, as in the genealogy of Luke 3:38, "...the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." This identifies God as a Father, even if we don't wish to consider the created angels the "sons of God", as Job 38:7 called them from the time of creation.
Yeah. That's true.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:27 pm

Hi Darin, you wrote:Not being a Greek scholar it appears the word order would seem strange for this also. και precedes not Jesus Christ but “whom you have sent.” It doesn’t have the same connotation to me as namely or even but instead a normal conjunction.
That is true, but that doesn't change the meaning. Here is a word for word translation (note — the hyphens are my insertion in order to align the English words with the corresponding Greek words):

'ινα γινωσκωσιν------------ σε --τον μονον 'αλθινον θεον και 'ον ----'απεστειλας 'ιησους χριστος
that they might recognize you the only ---true ----God -and whom you sent ---Jesus --Christ

That little word "and" indicates that the one whom God has sent, namely Jesus Christ is Someone other than "the only true God."
Paidion

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:44 pm

Hi 3R, you wrote:A few verses where "kai" means even or namely (as Strong lists it).
I say that is never the case. I affirm that the word "και" means either "and" or "also." Never anything else.

I don't know what translation you are using but here are phrases from two of the verses which you quoted as found in the ESV:

James 3:9 "before their God and Father."
1 Thessalonians 3:13 "with it we bless our Lord and Father."
Paidion

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:50 pm

Hi 3R, you wrote:As an aside, Paidion, you may have already addressed the following set of verses on the forum somewhere else, but how do you exegete Psalms 90:1-2 when compared with Hebrews 1:2 and John 1:1-3, if you believe that the Son "made the worlds", and that "without him" (without The Word) "was not anything made that was made"? Psalms 90:2 states who made the earth and the world. "LORD thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hast formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."
I make no attempt to reconcile the Psalms with Hebrews or John. I believe that the writers of the Psalms had no concept of God having created all things through His Son, for they had no concept of "the only begotten Son." To them the "sons of God" were the angels.
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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by 3Resurrections » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:04 pm

Hi Paidion,

Try this one, that proves the word "kai" CANNOT POSSIBLY be interpreted every single time as "in addition to".

Ephesians 1:3 (ESV) - "Blessed be the God AND (kai) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places," If the word "kai" MUST mean "also" in this verse, then what we would have here is God PLUS the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with these spiritual blessings in Christ. One God, in addition to the Father, plus the Lord Jesus Christ. I could use this to prove the Trinity, if you insist on interpreting "kai" with this one-and-only definition. Instead, I think it means "Blessed be the God, even (or namely) the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Regarding your point that "the writers of the Psalms had no concept of God having created all things through His Son, for they had no concept of 'the only begotten Son'." Doesn't this contradict what you've been telling me already? Your view is that "the Son" was "begotten before all ages", as the first of God's creative works. If that's true as you say, then the writers of the Psalms would have been well aware of the concept of "the only begotten Son", ever since the days of creation, as you have claimed. It's impossible to have it both ways, I'm afraid.

I do think that mankind was aware since creation that the manifestation of "a Son" was coming sometime in the future to crush the serpent's head. Eve herself might have mistakenly thought that Cain, her first-born son, might have been that particular prophesied "he" in Genesis 3:15 that would crush the head of the serpent. After all, she did say "I have gotten a man from the Lord"; a clear indication that she remembered God's former promise, and recognized the vital importance of a male representative Seed of hers that would do the necessary crushing of the serpent's head.

It is true that revelation of God's redemptive plan was progressively revealed from the creation forward, so it is certain that the writers of Hebrews and John had much more revelation in these matters from their perspective, than the writers of the Psalms had in their days. However, that further revealed knowledge did NOT contradict what the OT writers formerly knew; it only built upon the original foundation. The scriptures cannot be broken. They MUST reconcile. The same Author is behind all of it, both OT and NT.

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Paidion » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:54 am

Try this one, that proves the word "kai" CANNOT POSSIBLY be interpreted every single time as "in addition to".
I have never said or implied that this is the case. What I have said is the "και" means either "and" or "also" and NEVER "even."

However, just as in English, the word sometimes joins two words that denote the same entity, and sometimes join two words that denote two different entities.

Examples:
1. "Jack is my friend and teacher." The words "friend" and "teacher" denote the same individual.
2. "I would like an apple and an orange." The words "apple" and "orange" denote two different fruits. In other words, I would like an orange "in addition to" an apple.

When we read in the Bible about our "God and Father" the same divine Individual is denoted.
But when we read, "...this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent," two different divine Individuals are denoted—God the Father, and Jesus the Son.
Paidion

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Re: Proverbs 30, and Jesus' pre-incarnate "sonship"

Post by Homer » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:16 pm

But, as I would argue the case, John 17:3 is a statement rebutting the pagan belief in many gods and the unbelief of the Jews regarding Jesus being the Christ. As such it is totally irrelevant to the question of the Trinity.

On a recent Sunday we had a guest preacher. When we entered church, along with the usual bulletin we were handed a very small piece of a jigsaw puzzle. Early on in the sermon the speaker compared proof texting to trying to determine the puzzle picture by looking at one small piece. Point well taken!

Trying to prove the nature of the "unsearchable" God and the relation that may exist between Father and Son from the subject verse is proof texting at its worst.

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