Does God want us to do theology?

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darinhouston
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:10 pm

jriccitelli wrote:I have been amazed at how much more extensive study we in the Twenty first century can do, than say those of previous generations. I can do more now with a computer than I could say ten or twenty years ago. I can have multiple copies of Bibles and translations all open at once thanks to the printing press and copy machine, I just wonder are we better equipped than say Origen or Luther?
I was thinking about that just today as I was reading accounts from the "Church Fathers" and some early commentators aggregating their accounts. I am amazed how blind they "at least seemed" to be to the various middle positions I consider. The middle positions being discussed are easily dismissed, but that doesn't mean that either of the diametrically opposed extremes being avoided by the "voting blocks" were true. I find it shocking that a view that very few of them (by number) seem to have believed to be true was dogmatized for eternity as a fundamental truth of our Faith because they were literally in fear of a view that few "laymen" today would even have a fundamental problem with (even if they might disagree with it).

I like what (I believe) C.S. Lewis said -- paraphrased, it was that all "times" and eras have their predispositions and logical blinders and tendency to errors -- thankfully, they vary with the ages. So, it's important to read works from all times -- what seems to be obvious error to us wasn't to them, and what seems normal and reasonable to use might seem irrational or illogical to them.

Still, though we have greater access today, very few access them and even those of us who do seem to do so with less depth and breadth and contemplation than they seem to have done even with their more limited access. Certainly, that's not universally true in either case, but it generally seems to be the case.

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darinhouston
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:21 pm

Candlepower wrote:I think God does want us to "do" theology. Here are two verses (NKJV) that may speak to how we ought to "do" it.

Acts 17:11
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they (the Bereans) received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It seems to me that the Bereans were "testing," "undoing," or "deconstructing" various theologies -- not, doing theology. Likewise, dividing the word of truth doesn't mean deriving doctrines from it, but instead ensuring that what you teach is true -- precisely the danger in doing theology outside what is clearly supported from Scripture.

I wonder what the Bereans (or even Timothy) would have said if folks were teaching the various formulations of the Trinity.

Tychicus
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by Tychicus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:03 am

mattrose wrote:Paul letters and epistles are usually pretty neatly divided between theology (first half) and practical application (second half).
Now, that's quite a bold claim, and pretty much begs the original question. Can you please give some examples of such epistles, and explain what you mean by "theology".

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darinhouston
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:03 am

I think it's worth saying as a side note that I am not in any way opposed to "doing theology" - nothing could be further from the truth as I spend a great deal of time doing so myself. However, I do think this conversation is valuable and we should really take care with it to avoid taking our theology beyond what is warranted or wise. I press the points to seek that balance, and not to unduly restrict our pursuits.

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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by mattrose » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:48 am

Tychicus wrote:
mattrose wrote:Paul letters and epistles are usually pretty neatly divided between theology (first half) and practical application (second half).
Now, that's quite a bold claim, and pretty much begs the original question. Can you please give some examples of such epistles, and explain what you mean by "theology".
I think it must be my definition of 'theology' that is of issue, since nearly every commentator notes a bifold structure in nearly all of Paul's works. He tends to start with theology/doctrine/teaching and end with practical applications (Romans is the first of multiple examples, 1-11 making a theological point and 12 onward applying those truths to the church).

In calling the first section 'theology,' perhaps I am using a broader definition of theology than you are. I use the term theology not just for discussion of God's nature, but for discussion of the things of God as well. Romans 1-11 is, then, theology.... even as it includes anthropology, soteriology, pneumatology, eschatology, etc. It is a doctrinal section, and I nearly equate doctrine with theology (since both are aimed at understand God and what God has done, is doing, and will do.

Hebrews is another good example (though not definitely from Paul). The author brings a bunch of Old Testament passages into a flowing argument to exalt Jesus' greatness. It seems to me this is pretty much the same thing Jesus did for the disciples on the road to Emmaus post-resurrection. He explained the OT Scriptures in such a way that fit with Himself. Or, as have often been noted, Matthew has a 'kingly' theology of Jesus as his theme. Mark a 'servant' christology. Luke a 'truly man' christology. And John a 'truly God' christology. I don't think it is even really a disputable point that the NT writers were doing theology (nor do I think anyone in this thread is against 'doing theology').

What we're discussing is the limits of theology, but I think we actually agree in principle that dogmatic theology should be limited to what has been clearly revealed. All other theology should be held loosely, taught non-dogmatically, etc. The only thing we seem to be disagreeing with, it seems to me, is how we should treat and handle provisional theology.

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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:18 am

jriccitelli wrote:
are we better equipped than say Origen or Luther?
Absolutely we are.

a). Like you said.. our print bibles and commentaries were themselves more information than Origen and Luther. But now software. I have a friend who says "we got to the moon on an Atari." I hold in the palm of my hand an iPhone that is more powerful than the computers that sent men to the moon. With increases in memory storage, and the digitization of commentaries, Bibles, etc., we have access to more than libraries of the past.
b). Communication. This group is able to "do theology," in a way that the early church fathers.. and reformers.. and whoever else couldn't.
c). Scientific method.
- History.
- Historical and textual criticism.
I could go on. Maybe others would like to.

The question is.. does this information add to our relationship to God, or does it weigh our heads down.

"We hold nothing in higher regard than the Bible, except the Word of God." - Hans Denck, Anabaptist reformer.

If we aren't informed by the Word of God.. the Spirit of God, then our relationship will be with the information, not with God himself.
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:01 pm

What does "doing theology" mean?

I think it means systemetizing [sic] through logic. Comparing scripture to scripture.

I think that this gets us in all kinds of trouble. Particularly when you have to reconcile theologies within an inerrant Bible. Paul's "theology" was nuanced depending on his audience. If we fail to immerse ourself in his letter to the Romans and hear what it said in context of the Roman church, we might stumble trying to reconcile that letter with what he wrote to Ephesians for example. Examples of the problems that this can cause include predestination, and eschatology. This problem would occur less if we didn't try to abstract a thesis from different sources.

I like this quote from Hans Denck
To the Reader:The prophet Isaiah says in the twenty-ninth chapter, “and the vision of all this (that is, everything which points to God) has become to you like the words of a sealed book. Give it to a scholar and bid him read it and he will say that he does not know it by heart. Give it to an ignorant person and he will say, “I cannot read” [Isaiah 29:11f]

This prophecy has already been fulfilled in our own day. We can easily test this in above and similar statements. For we understand the mysteries of God even less than an ignorant animal. One who cannot read should go with full confidence to the only teacher who instructs all learned doctors. He alone has the key to this book which contains all the treasures of wisdom.O Lord, give whatever you will to whomever you will. Amen.Their folly will be plain to all. [2Timothy 3:9]
This is taken from his paper "Paradoxa" which lists 40 apparent contradictions in scripture. You can read it here.

http://www.untrainedeye.net/2013/02/05/ ... ck-1526ad/
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:39 pm

darinhouston wrote:Yes, but I think the question needs to be more narrowly asked. Theology is a broad subject. Clearly we are to deepen our knowledge and understanding of most things pertaining to God's plan and expectation of us as it has been revealed to us. However, I think the more narrow question is to what extent it is wise to have a formula or comprehensive doctrine of God, Himself.
I agree.

The divinity of Jesus and the trinity are great examples of this. The books of the New Testament conflicted with the Jewish belief that there is only one God. Christians believed that Jesus was God. This created problems enough. But Jesus also said things that distinguished him from YHWH, such as describing him as father. As a result, the church had to deal with the accusation that they were poly-theists, and forge some kind of unity.

It is one thing to seek unity... it is completely another thing to accuse someone of heresy. Divisiveness is the sin, not difference of beliefs. When the insistence of unity results in the declaration that those who disagree with "us" are heretics, study has gone off the rails.

This is for another thread.. but I think that heresies are actually character problems, not differences of opinion. The goal of instruction is a sincere faith, love from a pure heart and a good conscience, not agreement.

Rather than leading people to faith, these men teach strange doctrines lead people to speculation,
People who have strayed from faith, love and a good conscience have turned instead to fruitless discussion.
They want to be teachers of the Law.
They make confident assertions.

The problem here is pride, not false beliefs. They want people to follow them. It is more important to them that they be teachers than focusing on faith, love, and a good conscience. And they want to lead people to follow the law, instead of being saved by grace.

I believe that if people focus on Jesus' teaching, being saved by grace, loving God and others, and seeking holiness, then doctrine will take care of itself.

1 Timothy 1:3-7 (NASB)
As I urged you ... instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by mattrose » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:57 pm

morbo3000 wrote:What does "doing theology" mean?

I think it means systemetizing [sic] through logic. Comparing scripture to scripture.

I think that this gets us in all kinds of trouble.
If you define 'doing theology' as 'systemetizing through logic' and 'comparing scripture to scripture' then, in large part, theology is inevitable. You do it even if you don't realize you are doing it. In your example, if you come across an apparent contradiction in Scripture, you inevitably find some way to reconcile it (even if that 'way' is insisting that reconciling it is not a priority... THAT insistence is itself a theology!).

Whether one likes it or not, everyone believes something about Jesus Christ (especially Christians). You either believe Jesus is equated with God, a member of the godhead, not equal with God, etc. Not only is is probably impossible not to have an opinion on this, it is probably unhealthy to not care who exactly your Lord and Savior is, by nature.

Again, I am not saying we all have to take a dogmatic position on the precise nature of Jesus' relation to the Father. I'm just saying that just as dogmatism is often wrongheaded, so might purposefully refraining from connecting the many dots together be wrongheaded. We can discuss all day how many dots there really are to connect, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone attempting to connect those dots to reveal a fuller picture of their Lord and Savior. Even if they create a picture that doesn't look quite right and have to start over, I still think that is better than looking at a page of dots and being completely satisfied.

It is strange, though, that I sound like I'm in stark disagreement with Morbo and Darin. I'm not. I think they're right that the emphasis should be on following Jesus and not on connecting the dots. By saying we are right to try to connect the dots, I'm NOT saying that THAT is central to our faith. Following is. Loving God and people should always trump our theological work. But I do believe the quote I once heard: "Deep theology equals deep devotion." If I'm in love with someone, I want to know as much as possible about them. God has not revealed a systematic theology in the format that some of us might prefer, but God has revealed an awful lot... enough to put some pieces together for sure.

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Re: Does God want us to do theology?

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:43 pm

mattrose wrote: It is strange, though, that I sound like I'm in stark disagreement with Morbo and Darin. I'm not. I think they're right that the emphasis should be on following Jesus and not on connecting the dots. By saying we are right to try to connect the dots, I'm NOT saying that THAT is central to our faith. Following is. Loving God and people should always trump our theological work. But I do believe the quote I once heard: "Deep theology equals deep devotion." If I'm in love with someone, I want to know as much as possible about them. God has not revealed a systematic theology in the format that some of us might prefer, but God has revealed an awful lot... enough to put some pieces together for sure.
The more we talk about this.. the clearer my understanding is that "doing theology" is not anathema to the gospel. I think a way I might say it is that a certain amount of connecting the dots is inherent in engaging anything thoughtfully (which should be everything), and thus something that "God wants us to do." But that as we get more and more abstracted from the Bible itself, God no longer makes "doing theology" an important part of our living the gospel. Of course, it can be fun. But it could also be self-defeating.

This has been a helpful discussion for me.
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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