Our “spirits”?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
steve7150
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:28 am

Same thing. Paul desired to depart from this life, and to be with Christ in his resurrection life.








Paul never mentioned grave or resurrection life but was clearly "torn" in his choice which certainly would not be the case if he were simply going to a grave. He could wait to be dead in the grave at anytime in his life and there would be no urgency in his decision, he would simply live out his natural life and die naturally. Also there would be no decision to make as he would just live out his life on earth and die of old age.

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Paidion
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:26 am

You wrote:
Paul never mentioned grave or resurrection life but was clearly "torn" in his choice which certainly would not be the case if he were simply going to a grave. He could wait to be dead in the grave at anytime in his life and there would be no urgency in his decision, he would simply live out his natural life and die naturally. Also there would be no decision to make as he would just live out his life on earth and die of old age.

Are you referring to the following words of Paul from Philippians 1?

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

He is not talking about "simply going to a grave" but about being raised from death and so be with Christ.
He doesn't actually have a choice. He said (vs22) "IF I am to live in the flesh..."
Where his choice comes in is that he is not sure whether he would rather die, be raised again, and be with Christ forever, or go on living this life and continue to labour fruitfully for the sake of the saints.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:54 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
That isn't clear to me at all.
I think Paul is saying that he would rather be absent from this present mortal body, and present with the Lord in the future immortal resurrected body that he will receive when Jesus returns and raises the dead.
The two texts being discussed (1 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1) do not seem to give any support concerning what some refer to as "soul sleep", or however the state might be referred to. Rather, they seem to eliminate it. I am thinking (got no dog in this "doctrinal fight") that the reason for Paidion's position must be found in other scriptural passages, and I would like to see any that definitively support that (his) position.

It seems to me that taking the plain reading of the texts is analogous to Paul saying "I'd rather lay aside my tent making tools and go fishing". There is no state between the two being contemplated.

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Paidion
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:09 pm

John clearly taught that He would raise his disciples, not on the day of their death on the LAST DAY.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


Paul also seemed to believe that the resurrection was a single event that would occur at the last day when all would be raised, not that it has already happened and that now there is a continuing series of resurrections occurring at peoples' death.

... and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:17,18)
Last edited by Paidion on Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Paidion
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:15 pm

I see nothing at all in 1 Cor 5:8 or Philippians 1 that addresses the matter.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by Homer » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:55 pm

Hi Paidion,

Do you believe that soul, spirit, physical body are inseparable? Did those who appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration then go back to their graves or were they resurrected for the event?

steve7150
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Re: Our “spirits”?

Post by steve7150 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:47 pm

John clearly taught that He would raise his disciples, not on the day of their death on the LAST DAY.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.



No one disputes this but it's not the area of disagreement. The disagreement is that you make no distinction between body, soul and spirit so you must by definition only recognize the physical resurrection. I believe that body, soul and spirit are identifiable and so i can believe at face value what Paul said which is that he wanted to depart and be with the Lord.

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