Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:15 pm

The following is from the ESV translation. By saying that Jesus "has risen", it sounds as if He had raised Himself from the dead:

Mt 27:64 Therefore order the tomb to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away and tell the people,'He has risen from the dead,’ and the last fraud will be worse than the first."
Mt 28:6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay.
Mt 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you."
Mr 16:6 And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Lu 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
Lu 24:34 saying, "The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!"

The word that has been translated as "has risen" is "ηγερθη" (AgerthA in the English alphabet where "A" represents a long A)
This Greek word is an aorist passive, and should be translated "has been raised".

Here are some passages which indicate that God raised Him from the dead (also from the ESV translation):

Ac 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Ac 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Ac 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Ac 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead —  by him this man is standing before you well.
Ac 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Ac 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Ro 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:01 pm

Here we have MORE Biblical evidence that Jesus was, and Is God.

John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Paidon quoted scripture where God raised Jesus from the dead. Here Jesus said that He had authority, Himself, to rise from the dead. So did the Father raise HIm, or did He raise Himself? Both are true, therefore both are God.

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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:16 pm

Didn't Jesus say, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."?

Yes, He did. Jesus raised Himself from the dead. The Father raised Him from the dead. The Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead. (1 Peter 3:18)
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (another term for the three is GOD) raised Him from the dead.

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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:00 pm

"God" with the article "the God" ("ο θεος" in Greek; "ho theos" transliterated into English) ALWAYS refers to the Father only.
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:05 pm

Sorry but John 1:18, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, and Hebrews 1:8-9 don't follow your made-up rule. All of these refer to Jesus.

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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:25 pm

And your 4 passages to not admit exception except the one in John 20:28, and possibly the one in Hebrews if it has been translated correctly.

John 1:18 "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse, so how can the verse be an exception to my "made-up" rule?

John 20:28 "ο θεος " but the word "μου" (of me) occurs immediately after. "ο θεος μου" means "the god of me" or "my god."I should have specified that "ο θεος " must have no other modifiers in order to always refer to the Father alone. So clearly, without this stipulation, I was wrong.

Titus 2:13 Again, "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse. It has to be there in order for the verse to be an exception!

Heb 1:8,9 "ο θεος " in verse 9 does clearly refer to the Father.
In my opinion verse 8 has been mistranslated. If it were "Your throne O God is forever" then "God" would be in the vocative case. But it's not. It's in the nominative case, which means it is the subject of the sentence. It should be "God is your throne forever."
And thus "ο θεος " does refer to the Father. One translation that does render it as "God is your throne forever" is the New World Translation.
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:41 pm

Dwight wrote:The Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead. (1 Peter 3:18)
That's not what 1 Peter 3:18 says. Rather it says, "having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit".
Jesus' material body died, but his spirit was immediately made alive, even before his resurrection.
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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:46 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:25 pm
And your 4 passages to not admit exception except the one in John 20:28, and possibly the one in Hebrews if it has been translated correctly.

Dwight: So you admit that 2 out of the 4 are indeed exceptions?

John 1:18 "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse, so how can the verse be an exception to my "made-up" rule?

Dwight: John 1:18 does indeed have "theos ho" in the Nestle/Marshall Interlinear Greek-English New Testament. The second phrase say: "the only begotten 'theos ho' being in the bosom of the Father. So now that's 3 exceptions.

John 20:28 "ο θεος " but the word "μου" (of me) occurs immediately after. "ο θεος μου" means "the god of me" or "my god."I should have specified that "ο θεος " must have no other modifiers in order to always refer to the Father alone. So clearly, without this stipulation, I was wrong.

Dwight: So now you change the rule, adding another stipulation? The rule wasn't valid to begin with, so why add more made-up stipulations to it now?

Titus 2:13 Again, "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse. It has to be there in order for the verse to be an exception!

Dwight: The actual wording here is: "tou megalou theou", attempting to show the Greek here -obviously I don't know Greek, but the English translation is "of the great God". You are right that "ho theos" is not literally in this verse, but there a definite article referring to God.

Heb 1:8,9 "ο θεος " in verse 9 does clearly refer to the Father.
In my opinion verse 8 has been mistranslated. If it were "Your throne O God is forever" then "God" would be in the vocative case. But it's not. It's in the nominative case, which means it is the subject of the sentence.

Dwight: Wrong. I just looked this up:

Dwight: "When God is directly being spoken to in the scriptures (“O God”), the Greek Bible almost always uses ὁ θεός in the “nominative-as-vocative.” To say the same thing a different way: when God is being directly spoken to, the Greek Bible uses the nominative form ὁ θεός 99.99% of the time (and that isn't an exaggeration)."Feb 7, 2019

(Thy Throne, O God – Lectionarylectionary.blog › 2019/02/07 › thy-throne-o-god)

Dwight: The writer of Hebrews starts verse 8: "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, ...'" REFERRING TO THE SON, HE SAYS: YOUR THRONE O GOD ... Obviously God is being directly spoken to, because He calls Him God, and yet the author says he's referring to the Son.

It should be "God is your throne forever."
And thus "ο θεος " does refer to the Father. One translation that does render it as "God is your throne forever" is the New World Translation.

Dwight: That is definitely wrong. "ho theos" is directly being said to Jesus, the Son. Why am I not surprised with your interpretaion, when you use the so-called Bible translation of a cult, the Jehovah's Witness'?

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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:02 am

Paidion: John 1:18 "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse, so how can the verse be an exception to my "made-up" rule?

Dwight: John 1:18 does indeed have "theos ho" in the Nestle/Marshall Interlinear Greek-English New Testament. The second phrase say: "the only begotten 'theos ho' being in the bosom of the Father.

You are supposing that because "ho" occurs immediately after "theos" that it is just another form or "ho theos". IT ISN'T.
That "ho" doesn't belong to "theos" at all. In this verse it means "who".The phrase is "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom of the father." However, this does give credence to your belief that Jesus is God. He is called "the only-begotten god". The father who is god was not begotten. The son is the only-begotten god.
Paidion

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Re: Did God Raise Jesus or Did He Raise Himself

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:32 am

Paidion wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:02 am
Paidion: John 1:18 "ο θεος " does not occur in this verse, so how can the verse be an exception to my "made-up" rule?
You are supposing that because "ho" occurs immediately after "theos" that it is just another form or "ho theos". IT ISN'T.
That "ho" doesn't belong to "theos" at all. In this verse it means "who".The phrase is "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom of the father." However, this does give credence to your belief that Jesus is God. He is called "the only-begotten god". The father who is god was not begotten. The son is the only-begotten god.
Paidon,

Dwight: You are partially correct. I'll admit that I mistakenly thought John 1:18 fit into your rule. However, this does not change my understanding of this verse. Let me quote your translation of it: "the only-begotten god who is in the bosom of the father". You went on to say: "The son is the only-begotten god."

Dwight: But Isaiah 43:10 says that the Lord (God) said: "... Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me." (This scripture is, in one sense, incomprehensible. There is no such thing as "before God" - He always was, and there is no such thing as "after God" - He always will be. But I assume God is using language that we can understand) If I understand you correctly, you believe that the Son of God was the first act of God. In other words, Jesus was begotten (or formed) at some point after God. I think the word "formed" here would have to include "begotten" or "created".

Dwight: So the bottom line is that your understanding of Jesus' "origin" does not agree with what is being said in this verse. There was no God (or god- no lower case in Hebrew) formed or begotten or created after God. My conclusion has to be that Jesus (John calls Him the Word or the Word of Life) is and always has been God.

Dwight: Before I forget, please quote the "rule" you have been referring to and give your source for it.

Dwight

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