Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 08, 2023 9:01 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 9:54 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 4:01 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 3:54 pm


Thomas had just seen Jesus being crucified, after being brutally flogged, then nailed to a cross, and finally a soldier ran a spear into His side, and then He died. Not only did Thomas see Him ALIVE again just a short time later, but He still had the nail and spear wounds and He now had the ability to appear in a locked room without going through the door. No man had ever been seen coming back from the dead in an immortal body in all of history, nor has that happened since then. Jesus ate in front of them and yet He had the ability to appear or disappear at will. And you think that it wouldn't have been obvious to Thomas and those around him that Jesus was not only their Lord but their God?

If it wasn't obvious, then why did he say, "My Lord and my God"? Regarding the monotheism of the Jews, the Jewish apostles and disciples of Jesus had no problem at all with Jesus being God in the flesh. Several of them actually wrote about it in the New Testament. So, apparently you're right, there was no controversy. Rather, through the life and teaching of Jesus, they were able to learn a little more about who their One God is and about His very essence, just like those of us who never held the Jewish belief. Jesus being God in the flesh is still a monotheistic view. Christians who hold to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as comprising the Godhead ARE monotheistic.
Because he meant something by it besides Yahweh, eternal uncreated Creator - the one and true God of the universe - the being who just is.
You have to read that into the passage. There's no evidence whatsoever that He meant anything but what He said - That Jesus was His Lord and His God. Even if he meant something else, which I totally reject, you would have to be a mind reader to know that.
Well, I have the context of the entirety of scripture to preclude that particular meaning.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 08, 2023 10:24 pm

You can't take the context of another scripture and interject it into the context here in John 20:28 to make it appear that Thomas didn't really mean what he said. The meaning is crystal clear here from it's own context. No other context is needed.

The only reason you would bring in an outside context into this context is to change the meaning of what is actually being said.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 08, 2023 10:42 pm

John 14:23 - Jesus said, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."

1 Corinthians 3:16 - "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

Here we have the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all dwelling is those of us who love Jesus. Paul says that we are a "temple of God".

But if Jesus is not God, then how could Paul say that the three "persons" in us, is "a temple of God"?

Are we supposed to believe that Paul's reference to "a temple of God" only applies to the Father and the Holy Spirit in us, and not to Jesus?

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Wed May 10, 2023 1:04 pm

Jesus applies for the job of God

An archangel sits at a desk full of papers, while talking on the phone; Jesus walks in.

“Welcome to application for God, the only job were being overqualified is an absolute must! Just take a number and sit anywhere, we’ll get to you shortly.”

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva the destroyer of worlds, get the bad news: “I’m sorry, you just don’t quite cut the mustard today.”

The angel picks up Jesus' resume, “Now let’s see here, mhm, yes, yes…. quite promising,” as he takes a sit in front of the desk.

“Alpha and omega, all things created through you and for you, upholds all things by the word of your power, defeated death, holds the power of life, all authority in heaven and earth, before Abraham was you exist in the very beginning, all things in heaven and earth praise you, sitting on the very throne of God… good, good. So far, so good. But I have some reservations here at the bottom.”

“Yes?”

“Well, there’s this bit about humbling yourself and taking on the form of a servant… and becoming submitted to this other person who apparently, holds all your qualifications as well.”

”Would that be a problem?”

”Well, typically see, we want to think of God in terms of, well, to be frank, not subject to anything or with anything above him, and definitely not….” Choking a bit on the words, “Definitely not becoming a lowly creation, ugh.”

“Wouldn’t that be amazing for a God to do, though, if you think about it, to show actual humility when he has absolutely no obligation to do so…”

“It’s just not how things are done! Think of the disgrace it would bring, that the infinite and supreme could so condescend and humiliate itself just seems absolutely shameful!”

“I see. But wouldn’t that, in the end, be putting limits and demands on God, wouldn’t that be putting a kind of creaturely pride that always wants to grasp its ego and hold on to what it has at all costs, instead of being the supremely sacrificial actor…”

“Yes, but it’s GOD we are talking about here. You can’t just take a holiday. You can’t just lower yourself and actually limit and submit yourself, it’s terrible, it’s preposterous, it’s…”

“Wouldn’t it be the ultimate act of humility and sacrifice in a way, in fact the supreme expression of love?”

“Well, uh, erm, I…. some things just should never be!”

“Might I ask what YOUR qualifications are to determine what a God should or should not be?!”

The angel’s face flushed red.

“Well, sir, I was appointed this position by… um, let’s see… um, by you in fact!”

“Exactly.”

And Jesus calmly got up, patted the archangel on the back, and walked out the door.

*end scene*

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 10, 2023 5:36 pm

I was waiting for the punch line, but it never came.

dizerner

Re: Jesus is God

Post by dizerner » Wed May 10, 2023 6:16 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 5:36 pm
I was waiting for the punch line, but it never came.
Because Jesus is not a joke .

He's God!

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 11, 2023 12:20 am

Hebrews 3:3-4 - "For He (Jesus) has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house". The author is calling Jesus the builder of the house. He has the exact same glory as the builder, which means He is the builder.

But the next verse says:

"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things IS GOD."

So we have Jesus as the builder of the house and God as the builder of all things (including the house). So Jesus is God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 11, 2023 2:33 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 12:20 am
Hebrews 3:3-4 - "For He (Jesus) has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house". The author is calling Jesus the builder of the house. He has the exact same glory as the builder, which means He is the builder.

But the next verse says:

"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things IS GOD."

So we have Jesus as the builder of the house and God as the builder of all things (including the house). So Jesus is God.
That's some pretty bad logic. Have you ever built anything? You tend not to give words the opportunity to have their meaning limited or enlarged by context. You seem to just think they mean what they say - but you only think they say what you want them to say.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 11, 2023 4:26 pm

In Mark 12:35-37 Jesus quotes Psalm 110:1. He is saying that the Christ (or the Messiah) was David's Lord, and implying that He, the Christ, was not the son of David (although we know he was David's son, physically), but He was (primarily) the Son of God.

He also acknowledges two Lords here - "The Lord said to my Lord, ..." Jehovah God was the first Lord mentioned, Jesus was the second Lord.

Yet Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6 that there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

So are there two Lords, as Jesus acknowledges, or is there only one Lord, as Paul said?

But Paul also refers to Jehovah God as Lord, when he quotes Psalm 32:2 in Romans 4:8. So apparently he recognizes two Lords as well. He does the same thing in Romans 9:28-29, where he acknowledges that Jehovah God is also called Lord (referring to Isaiah 10:23 and 1:9). In Romans 10:11-12, Paul calls Jesus "Lord of all", the same title Peter gave Jesus in Acts 10:36. But in verse 13, Paul quotes Joel 2:32, where Joel is speaking of Jehovah God, but Paul uses that same verse to speak of Jesus, since He was already the topic.

So Paul not only acknowledges that there are two Lords, Jehovah God and Jesus, but he also equates the two in verse 13.

"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord (Jehovah in the Old Testament Hebrew, but Paul is REFERRING TO JESUS in the New Testament) will be saved."
They are the SAME "PERSON".

Why would Paul say that there is only one Lord, when he acknowledges in other places that God the Father is also the Lord? I'm not sure - maybe Steve has some insight.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 11, 2023 4:48 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 2:33 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 12:20 am
Hebrews 3:3-4 - "For He (Jesus) has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house". The author is calling Jesus the builder of the house. He has the exact same glory as the builder, which means He is the builder.

But the next verse says:

"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things IS GOD."

So we have Jesus as the builder of the house and God as the builder of all things (including the house). So Jesus is God.
That's some pretty bad logic.

Dwight - Actually, it follows very closely to the logic of the passage.

Have you ever built anything?

Dwight - I don't know see why that would matter, but yes, I spent a considerable amount of time framing homes.

You tend not to give words the opportunity to have their meaning limited or enlarged by context. You seem to just think they mean what they say - but you only think they say what you want them to say.

Dwight - Not true. It's obvious that the house referred to here is the house of Israel under Moses and/or the body of Christ in the New Testament. In other words "God's people or His church". Jesus said, "On this rock, I will build My church." The teaching here is that Jesus built BOTH, yet verse 4 identifies God as the builder of all things.

Dwight - Now it's your turn to explain what it "actually means", since I only make it say what I want it to say.

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