Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:28 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:46 am
Apparently, before His birth, as the Word, He did not have the body that He has now.
That assumes he existed in a real and personal sense (presumably as a conscience being even if not in body) "as the Word." That is where we disagree. I don't see the greek concept of "Logos" which John uses as being a personal being any more than personification of Sophia/Wisdom. See my earlier comments on paganism.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:39 pm

Hi Darin, you wrote: I don't see the greek concept of "Logos" which John uses as being a personal being
John 1:1,2 translated from the Greek:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was Deity.
This one was in the beginning with God.


If the logos was Deity, then surely the logos was personal.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:38 am

Paidion wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:39 pm
Hi Darin, you wrote: I don't see the greek concept of "Logos" which John uses as being a personal being
John 1:1,2 translated from the Greek:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was Deity.
This one was in the beginning with God.


If the logos was Deity, then surely the logos was personal.
Deity/Divine could include something being called "of God" -- that does not carry the same implication.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:05 pm

Darin,
John 1:1-3
New American Standard Bible 1995

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
What do you do with the personal pronouns? Are you saying they should have been translated as "it"?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:52 pm

Hi Homer,

I was waiting for Darin's reply, but there is none forthcoming as of yet.

I do believe that the Logos is the Son of God, but it cannot be proven by asserting that the pronouns are "He" and "Him".
The Greek does allow them to be translated as "it".

Hopefully I will give the evidence of this in a later post, when I find the time to do so.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:33 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:52 pm
Hi Homer,

I was waiting for Darin's reply, but there is none forthcoming as of yet.

I do believe that the Logos is the Son of God, but it cannot be proven by asserting that the pronouns are "He" and "Him".
The Greek does allow them to be translated as "it".

Hopefully I will give the evidence of this in a later post, when I find the time to do so.
Dwight - So if the Greek allows "it", then we have: It was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. So we have everything coming into being through an inanimate object? I don't think so. The NASB says the literal translation is: "This One was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:34 pm

Hi Paidion,

I was aware "it" was a possibility but something tells me "it" doesn't fit (rather "it" seems absurd in the context). Let us see how it reads if we consistently translate autos/autou as being the impersonal "it":

John 1:1-18 (NASB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 It was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In it was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through it. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through it, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received it, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in its name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw its glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about it and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of its fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


Doesn't work for me.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:01 am

I'm traveling and can respond further but why be mindlessly consistent? If it has a broad enough semantic range to be both he and it, then context can drive it and we're at best left with pronoun ambiguity. If his readers didn't consider Logos (a well understood term at the time) they would not have read it that way. And if it's a personification, then you need not actually translate it "it" anyway.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:29 am

"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely FOR MY SAKE. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, FOR SO they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11-12

Who were the prophets persecuted for? For God. Jesus is identifying Himself as the SAME one for whom the prophets were persecuted for. God.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:20 pm

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." NKJV

"Who is and who was and who is to come" was previously used of God the Father in verse 4. Hebrews 13:8 says: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.", which is saying basically the same thing, only referring to Jesus.

The speaker here (Rev. 1:8) also says that He is "the Almighty" (El Shaddai), again, a term used for the Father. Later, in Revelation 1:17, He adds that He is "the first and the last (a title used for Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6), and the Living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore".

Yet we know that Jesus was dead and is now alive forevermore, so He is clearly "the first and the last" mentioned both in Isaiah and now here in Revelation 1:17-18.

In Revelation 22:12, the speaker says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. So we see that all these titles are synonymous, and Jesus is given titles here that are uniquely given to the Father in the Old Testament.

These verses are difficult to maneuver around, for those who say that Jesus is not God

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