Dwight -That's exactly what I said is NOT clear. There was no need for the Father to reveal anything to Him through the Spirit. The Father was abiding IN HIM. "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own iniative, but the Father abiding in Me DOES HIS WORKS. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me ..." When Jesus speaks, it is the Father speaking "DOING HIS WORKS." John 14:10-11darinhouston wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:42 pmWe clearly just think different from one another - it's clear that he knows such things because the Father revealed them to him (through the Spirit). That's not very controversial. Even Trinitarians believe he emptied himself of his divine prerogatives such as omniscience and so forth. Don't the apostles even talk about heaven and such? I don't see any inference of "first hand knowledge" as you suggest. He speaks as of someone who has special knowledge of the spiritual realms. He was, after all, a prophet (even if not "just" a prophet).dwight92070 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:46 amHow is it possible that Jesus knows whats going on in heaven when a sinner repents? He didn't say, "Thus says the Lord", so it wasn't a prophetic word or a word of knowledge by the Holy Spirit. In fact, He never says "Thus says the Lord", because He IS the LORD.
In verse 10, He says again: "Likewise I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Again, how does He know how what happens in the presence of the angels of God, when a sinner repents? It's almost as if He knows because He has been there, and has seen the angels do just that - most likely during the days of the Old Covenant or even before that?
In Matthew 18:10-14, He also spoke the parable of the 100 sheep. The context there is that He is speaking of little children. We see that in verses 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10. In fact, verse 10 says:
"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven."
How does Jesus know that little children have angels? And how does He know that their angels ALWAYS see the face of His Father who is in heaven? Apparently He had seen those angels do just that.
These are not the words of someone who is simply a man. NO man had such knowledge before Jesus or since Jesus - to tell us what is going on in heaven, UNLESS they were seeing a vision like Isaiah or Ezekiel or given a revelation like John and the book of Revelation.
But there's no indication of either a vision here or a revelation. Both of these supernatural occurrences were obvious in those three books.
But they are not obvious here. Here, He speaks as if He has first-hand knowledge, like He had been there, and had seen those things in heaven.
Which means that He pre-existed and that He was and is more than human. Of course we know He is God.
As an aside, Matthew 18:14 says, "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."
Besides showing us again that He had knowledge that no other man has ever had, this also clearly debunks that evil doctrine, Calvinism, which says that God has chosen who would be saved and who would be lost, without their free will entering into the equation at all.
Dwight -The only place I know of that tells us that He emptied Himself is Philippians 2:7. Please tell me what verse in Philippians or anywhere else tells us that He emptied Himself of HIs omniscience. There's only one thing that He admitted that He didn't know - the time of His 2nd Coming. It appears that He knew everything else. Please tell me where any apostle tells us what they know or have seen in heaven. You talk as though it was commonplace for them to speak of things in heaven. If that's true, show me where. The only possible place is in Revelation, which clearly tells us, even by the name of the book itself, that John had all those things revealed to him, not by the Holy Spirit, but apparently through an angel, sent by Jesus It does NOT say that the things that Jesus knew and spoke about heaven and the angels were revealed to Him through the Holy Spirit or God. Rather, when Jesus spoke of those things, it was the Father speaking "doing His works" in Jesus. He was definitely expressing first hand knowledge, because He was God in the flesh. You are quite mistaken.
