Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:53 pm

In Hebrews 7:3, the writer tells us that the Son of God has "NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS nor end of life ..." We know that the man Jesus had both a birth and a death - and a human mother, but His Father was God. But, as the Son of God, one of Jesus' titles, given to Him by Gabriel (who also told Mary His name) before He was born (Luke 1:32), He had no "beginning of days nor end of life ..." He always was an eternal being, which is ONLY true of God Himself. The Son of God, who is clearly identified as Jesus in scripture, had no (human) father or (human) mother. Yet, at the same time, Jesus HAD a human mother. We can't fully understand how both of those could be true, but they are true, nonetheless. He always was and always will be.

This clearly contradicts the theory that Jesus was begotten by God some time before creation - because He would have had a beginning His days, if that were true. Also, it contradicts the theory that Jesus was created by God some time before He created anything else - because that too would mean that He had a beginning, which He did not have.

Jesus was human and yet He was God at the same time.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:09 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:53 pm
In Hebrews 7:3, the writer tells us that the Son of God has "NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS nor end of life ..." We know that the man Jesus had both a birth and a death - and a human mother, but His Father was God. But, as the Son of God, one of Jesus' titles, given to Him by Gabriel (who also told Mary His name) before He was born (Luke 1:32), He had no "beginning of days nor end of life ..." He always was an eternal being, which is ONLY true of God Himself. The Son of God, who is clearly identified as Jesus in scripture, had no (human) father or (human) mother. Yet, at the same time, Jesus HAD a human mother. We can't fully understand how both of those could be true, but they are true, nonetheless. He always was and always will be.

This clearly contradicts the theory that Jesus was begotten by God some time before creation - because He would have had a beginning His days, if that were true. Also, it contradicts the theory that Jesus was created by God some time before He created anything else - because that too would mean that He had a beginning, which He did not have.

Jesus was human and yet He was God at the same time.
Since you have suggested this is so clearly contradictory, can you point out where the passage says the referent in Hebrews 7:3 is either Jesus or the Son of God?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:21 am

(Heb 5:5 ESV) So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you."

A human child is begotten when a sperm of a man enters the egg of a woman. That's when the life of that child began, and from there, over a period of 9 months, it grows and develops into a human baby. Prior to being begotten, the child did not exist.

God's begetting of Jesus was also the beginning of Jesus' life. Prior to his begetting, Jesus did not exist.

(Col 1:15 ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Does this sentence not indicate that the begetting of the Son was the first of God's acts? The early Christians declared that the begetting of the Son was the first of God's acts. So there must have been a time when the Son of God did not exist. So how could he be God? There never was a time when God did not exist.

No, Jesus isn't God. There is only one God—the Father,as Paul plainly taught:

(1Co 8:6 ESV) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:21 am
(Heb 5:5 ESV) So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you."

A human child is begotten when a sperm of a man enters the egg of a woman. That's when the life of that child began, and from there, over a period of 9 months, it grows and develops into a human baby. Prior to being begotten, the child did not exist.

God's begetting of Jesus was also the beginning of Jesus' life. Prior to his begetting, Jesus did not exist.

Dwight: John 1:30 - John the Baptist speaking - "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, FOR HE EXISTED BEFORE ME." John 17:5 - Jesus speaking - "Now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." Hebrews 7:3 Here the author says that the Son of God has "NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE".

Dwight: The scripture tells us that before Jesus was born or begotten in Mary's womb, He was called "The Word" - John 1:1. "The Word became flesh - Jesus, but before His birth He existed with the name "The Word".

(Col 1:15 ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Does this sentence not indicate that the begetting of the Son was the first of God's acts?

Dwight: No, it does not! The firstborn means that He is the Preeminent One of all creation, NOT THAT HE WAS BEGOTTEN OR BORN OR CREATED BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE. This is the meaning of "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27; Jeremiah 31:9; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:6; Hebrews 12:23; and Revelation 1:5. "Firstborn" also means "preeminent" in the verse you quoted - Colossians 1:15. This is confirmed in verse 18 of that same chapter: "He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, SO THAT HE HIMSELF WILL COME TO HAVE FIRST PLACE IN EVERYTHING."

The early Christians declared that the begetting of the Son was the first of God's acts.

Dwight: That's their problem The early church declared a lot of things that were not true. We don't go by what the early church believed, unless it can be backed up by scripture.

So there must have been a time when the Son of God did not exist.

Dwight: It's my understanding that the term "Son of God", or "Son of the Most High" was first used by Gabriel in announcing to Mary that she would be the mother of Jesus in Luke 1:32. Before that, Jesus was known as "The Word" - John 1:1 The name "Son of God" may not have always existed, just like the name "Jesus" may not have always existed, but the person who is identified by those names HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. Again, He always was "The Word".

So how could he be God? There never was a time when God did not exist.

Dwight: John 1:1 tells us: In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

No, Jesus isn't God.

Dwight: Yes, Jesus IS God John 1:1 and verse 14 tell us that plainly.

There is only one God—the Father,as Paul plainly taught:

(1Co 8:6 ESV) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Dwight: The context of this chapter is not a description of the "Godhead". The context is idols. Paul basically says that the pagan world has many gods and many lords (verse 5) but for us, Christians, "there is one God - [the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...]". So he is comparing their many gods, to our one God - which is comprised of [the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ]. If he meant to say that only the Father was God, then why did he even mention Jesus? He could have stopped after "one God, the Father", but he didn't. This is confirmed by many other verses where Paul calls Jesus God and/or equates Jesus with God. Also in those and many other verses he brings in the Holy Spirit as the third person, which he doesn't do here, because that is not his purpose here. I won't mention all of those now, because I have put forward many of them in previous posts. But we can go over them again, if anyone wants to.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:47 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
Dwight: The scripture tells us that before Jesus was born or begotten in Mary's womb, He was called "The Word" - John 1:1. "The Word became flesh - Jesus, but before His birth He existed with the name "The Word".
This is more careless exegesis. What we know from this passage is that there was something called The Word that pre-existed Christ (though "the beginning" isn't defined and could be beginning of the new creation). It does not say Jesus was called The Word. It said The Word became or was "enfleshed in" Jesus. So, it was something before Jesus and became something else in Jesus (if it's even a material/metaphysical thing in the first place).

It simply does not say (and I might suggest doesn't imply): "In the beginning Jesus was called The Word, and then Jesus was called Jesus when he became flesh."

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:51 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
Paidion: There is only one God—the Father,as Paul plainly taught:

(1Co 8:6 ESV) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Dwight: The context of this chapter is not a description of the "Godhead". The context is idols. Paul basically says that the pagan world has many gods and many lords (verse 5) but for us, Christians, "there is one God - [the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...]". So he is comparing their many gods, to our one God - which is comprised of [the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ]. If he meant to say that only the Father was God, then why did he even mention Jesus? He could have stopped after "one God, the Father", but he didn't. This is confirmed by many other verses where Paul calls Jesus God and/or equates Jesus with God. Also in those and many other verses he brings in the Holy Spirit as the third person, which he doesn't do here, because that is not his purpose here. I won't mention all of those now, because I have put forward many of them in previous posts. But we can go over them again, if anyone wants to.
What do you do with John 20:17: "Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:32 pm

Hmmmm... If Dwight is right, it looks like God has a God!
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:56 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:09 pm
Paidion: There is only one God—the Father,as Paul plainly taught:

(1Co 8:6 ESV) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Dwight: The context of this chapter is not a description of the "Godhead". The context is idols. Paul basically says that the pagan world has many gods and many lords (verse 5) but for us, Christians, "there is one God - [the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...]". So he is comparing their many gods, to our one God - which is comprised of [the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ]. If he meant to say that only the Father was God, then why did he even mention Jesus? He could have stopped after "one God, the Father", but he didn't. This is confirmed by many other verses where Paul calls Jesus God and/or equates Jesus with God. Also in those and many other verses he brings in the Holy Spirit as the third person, which he doesn't do here, because that is not his purpose here. I won't mention all of those now, because I have put forward many of them in previous posts. But we can go over them again, if anyone wants to.
This seems like a real exegetical reach to suggest this as an explicit teaching that both the Father and Jesus are both one God.

When I read 1 Co 8, I see two very clear topics - in 8:5, Paul says that to many there are both many gods and many lords (distinguishing the two categories) and then contrasts reality where for the Christian there is only one of each.
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I see nothing in the context of this passage to suggest Paul was in any way suggesting (whether he believed it or not) that both the Father and Jesus were a one God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:02 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:09 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:53 pm
In Hebrews 7:3, the writer tells us that the Son of God has "NEITHER BEGINNING OF DAYS nor end of life ..." We know that the man Jesus had both a birth and a death - and a human mother, but His Father was God. But, as the Son of God, one of Jesus' titles, given to Him by Gabriel (who also told Mary His name) before He was born (Luke 1:32), He had no "beginning of days nor end of life ..." He always was an eternal being, which is ONLY true of God Himself. The Son of God, who is clearly identified as Jesus in scripture, had no (human) father or (human) mother. Yet, at the same time, Jesus HAD a human mother. We can't fully understand how both of those could be true, but they are true, nonetheless. He always was and always will be.

This clearly contradicts the theory that Jesus was begotten by God some time before creation - because He would have had a beginning His days, if that were true. Also, it contradicts the theory that Jesus was created by God some time before He created anything else - because that too would mean that He had a beginning, which He did not have.

Jesus was human and yet He was God at the same time.
Since you have suggested this is so clearly contradictory, can you point out where the passage says the referent in Hebrews 7:3 is either Jesus or the Son of God?
Dwight, this was a specific question - you might have missed it. Any thoughts?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:05 pm

Dwight, you mentioned that Jesus being the "Son of God" was evidence that Jesus was eternal. Curious what you do with the following?

Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

It wasn't because of his eternal sonship that he was called the son of God. It was because he was begotten by the H.S. coming upon Mary.

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