Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:06 pm

Paidion,

It seems that the term "firstborn of all creation" when applied to Jesus would imply that Jesus is part of that which was created.

In some of the places where the word is used in scripture it has the meaning of status and preeminence rather than a chronological meaning.

For example in Genesis 41:51-52 we find:

(NASB)
51 Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father’s household.” 52 He named the second Ephraim, “For,” he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

But then we find in Jeremiah 31:9

(NASB)
“With weeping they will come,
And by supplication I will lead them;
I will make them walk by streams of waters,
On a straight path in which they will not stumble;
For I am a father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.”

Clearly Ephraim was not chronologically the firstborn, but has the privilege of a firstborn.

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:27 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:14 pm
"The firstborn of all creation" is a pretty rational justification for the begetting of the Son being God's first act.
However, the claim that it refers to His resurrection, is totally irrational.

Dwight - Not at all. Paul uses the phrase "firstborn from the dead" just 3 verses after he uses the phrase "the firstborn of all creation". The probability that the 2 are related is high and that the 2 mean the same thing - maybe not as high, but still up there. "The firstborn from the dead" is an obvious reference to Christ's resurrection, as most scholars agree. The probability that Paul would use the word "firstborn" to mean one thing in one sentence, and then just 3 sentences later, he uses "firstborn" to mean something else totally different and unrelated is very low - not impossible but very low.

Dwight -So let's put on our thinking caps and ask ourselves, "What would 'the firstborn of all creation have to do with Christ's resurrection?'"
Well, He was the first to "be clothed with" His "dwelling from heaven". 2 Corinthians 5:2 Paul is speaking about a glorified body that Jesus "put on" when He was resurrected. Even today, NO ONE else has a glorified body - but we will on the last day. 1 Corinthians 15:20 says, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the FIRST FRUITS of those who are asleep. Of all the CREATED persons, Jesus is the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD.
But when we receive our glorified bodies, something also happens to THE REST OF THE CREATION - THE CREATION ALSO CHANGES. It will "be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Romans 8:21 That includes the stars, the planets, the earth, animals, plants, trees, all elements, rocks - there will be no more decay, rusting, dying, aging, killing, mold, pain, crying, suffering, etc. It TRULY IS LIKE A RESURRECTION FOR ALL OF CREATION!!

Dwight - So, no, it is not irrational at all for Jesus to be called "the firstborn of ALL CREATION", since HE ALREADY HAS HIS GLORIFIED BODY - and because He rose from the dead, not only we, His followers, but ALL OF HIS CREATION WILL BE CHANGED, "IN A MOMENT, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE".

Dwight - I'll admit that this view could be wrong. There could be another explanation. Another possibility is that "the firstborn of all creation" refers to Christ's PREEMINENCE OVER ALL CREATION, SINCE HE HIMSELF IS THE CREATOR.

Dwight - I do not see any possibility, however, that it means that Christ was begotten as the first act of God. Obviously, that would mean that He is not God, which is why you and other Arians adopt that view. Since there is a multitude of scripture that shows us that He is God, we know that your view cannot be true.

Dwight - Paidon, do you acknowledge that your view COULD BE WRONG, LIKE I DID WITH MY VIEW?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:48 am

Dwight, you wrote:Dwight - Paidon, do you acknowledge that your view COULD BE WRONG, LIKE I DID WITH MY VIEW?
My forum name is "Paidion".

I would be willing to acknowledge that my views could be mistaken. But what I have stated is not a "view". It is plain common sense.
Paidion

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:30 pm

Paidion,
I think I could say the same, although I don't mind calling it a view.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:04 am

What follows is the text of the original Nicene creed (325 A.D.)

Notice it declares that the "one God" is the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God—begotten, not created. There is not the slightest suggestion that He is God. The Holy Spirit, is also mentioned, with no suggestion that the Spirit is God.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father;
God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not created, being of one substance with the Father,
Through whom all things were made; both things in heaven and things on earth;
Who for us people, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man;
He suffered, and was raised again the third day,
And ascended into heaven
And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
And in one baptism of repentance for deliverance from sins,
And in one holy universal Church,
And in the resurrection of the flesh,
And in everlasting life.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:34 pm

Paidion, I think that might be a bit disingenuous. It's pretty clear from the historical record that what follows with "God of God, Light of Light, etc." is a reference to both the Father and Son that precedes it. I don't agree with it, but I think it's pretty clear that's what was meant. Otherwise, why the controversy?

dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:23 am

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:34 pm
Paidion, I think that might be a bit disingenuous. It's pretty clear from the historical record that what follows with "God of God, Light of Light, etc." is a reference to both the Father and Son that precedes it. I don't agree with it, but I think it's pretty clear that's what was meant. Otherwise, why the controversy?
Dwight - I agree with your analysis, Darin. Also the phrase "Very God of very God" - how can Paidion say that there's no mention of Jesus being God? However I also disagree with the creed in saying that Jesus was begotten of the Father before all ages. The Bible ONLY refers to Jesus being begotten on two occasions: 1. His physical birth and 2. His resurrection.

Dwight - Also Paidion, you have been a real stickler about the definition of "begotten", requiring a father and a mother. So, if Jesus was begotten before all ages, then who was His mother - or are you going to deviate from your own definition?

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:18 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:23 am
Dwight - I agree with your analysis, Darin. Also the phrase "Very God of very God" - how can Paidion say that there's no mention of Jesus being God? However I also disagree with the creed in saying that Jesus was begotten of the Father before all ages. The Bible ONLY refers to Jesus being begotten on two occasions: 1. His physical birth and 2. His resurrection.
Interesting. That was pretty much the key point to counter the particular views of Arius (who believed most everything about Jesus modern Trinitarians do other than his co-eternality with the Father). I think most today who consider themselves trinitarians are probably closer to Arius than they realize if they think very much about it at all.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:02 am

Dwight wrote:Also Paidion, you have been a real stickler about the definition of "begotten", requiring a father and a mother. So, if Jesus was begotten before all ages, then who was His mother - or are you going to deviate from your own definition?
FALSE! Never have I stated that begotten "requires a father and mother."

Look up "beget" in any dictionary.
Merriam-Webster provides the following definition:
"to procreate as the father"
A mother is never said to have procreated anyone.

Is this the way you operate? Invent definitions that you claim others have made, and then argue against them?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:17 pm

Further with regard to human begetting.
Yes, a woman is involved when a human begetting takes place, but the woman doesn't do the begetting.
The father has begotten an offspring when one of his sperm unites with the egg of a woman and begins to grow to become a foetus.
Nine months later, the woman gives birth to a child that was begotten nine months previously.
The woman didn't beget the child; she gave birth to the child.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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