Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:28 am

Backwoodsman,
I'm sorry about making the comment that you still hold a grudge against me. I should not have said that.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:54 am

From John 5: How many of us could say, "Whatever I see God the Father doing, these things I do in like manner?" Obviously, none of us could say that. No mere human can do the things that the Father does or has done - create the heavens and the earth, create the animals, create the vegetation, create man, forgive sins, send people to heaven or hell, instantly heal people, "override" natural laws, create weather, or stop weather, raise the dead, etc., etc. But Jesus said just that, and of course, He did all of those things and more. He was equal with God, because He did everything that God did, or still does. Whatever works, even miracles He saw the Father doing, He did the same. He could raise anyone from the dead - whoever He chose, just like His Father did. God is the Judge of all, but He has chosen to give ALL JUDGMENT to the SON. The Father desires that we honor the Son EVEN AS we honor the Father. How do we honor the Father? Well, one way is by acknowledging that HE IS GOD. In fact, if we do not acknowledge Jesus' EQUALITY with the Father, then we are not honoring God the Father Himself. Jesus had life IN HIMSELF, just as the Father had life IN HIMSELF. The Father gave that to the
Son.
Jesus was not less than His Father, because He was God (His Father) in the flesh. How can God be in the flesh? It seems impossible, but not for God. In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Again, how is that possible? We don't know. God knows. Yes, Jesus was in submission to the Father, just like a wife and her children are to be in submission to her husband - their father. But are a wife and her children less than her husband - their father? No, they are EQUAL. Even so, Jesus and His Father are equal.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:57 am

Jesus said: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him Who sent Me." John 6:38 We know that He was born in Bethlehem, and yet He said He came down out of heaven. We see clearly that He existed before His physical birth. John identifies Him as the Word in John 1:1, which became flesh. We know that the Word was God.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:44 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:57 am
Jesus said: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him Who sent Me." John 6:38 We know that He was born in Bethlehem, and yet He said He came down out of heaven. We see clearly that He existed before His physical birth. John identifies Him as the Word in John 1:1, which became flesh. We know that the Word was God.
This is from a site on John 3:13 but it is still appropriate...

The Jews would not have taken John’s words to mean that Christ “incarnated.” It was common for them to say that something “came from heaven” if God were its source. For example, James 1:17 says that every good gift is “from above” and “comes down” from God. What James means is clear. God is the Author and source of the good things in our lives. God works behind the scenes to provide what we need. The verse does not mean that the good things in our lives come directly down from heaven. Most Christians experience the Lord blessing them by way of other people or events, but realize that the ultimate source of the blessings was the Lord. We should apply John’s words the same way we understand James’ words—that God is the source of Jesus Christ, which He was. Christ was God’s plan, and then God directly fathered Jesus.

There are also verses that say Jesus was “sent from God,” a phrase that shows God as the ultimate source of what is sent. John the Baptist was a man “sent from God” (John 1:6), and it was he who said that Jesus “comes from above” and “comes from heaven” (John 3:31). When God wanted to tell the people that He would bless them if they gave their tithes, He told them that He would open the windows of “heaven” and pour out a blessing (Mal. 3:10 – KJV). Of course, everyone understood the idiom being used, and no one believed that God would literally pour things out of heaven. They knew that the phrase meant that God was the origin of the blessings they received. Still another example is when Christ was speaking and said, “John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven or from men?” (Matt. 21:25). Of course, the way that John’s baptism would have been “from heaven” was if God was the source of the revelation. John did not get the idea on his own, it came “from heaven.” The verse makes the idiom clear: things could be “from heaven,” i.e., from God, or they could be “from men.” The idiom is the same when used of Jesus. Jesus is “from God,” “from heaven” or “from above” in the sense that God is his Father and thus his origin.

The idea of coming from God or being sent by God is also clarified by Jesus’ words in John 17. He said, “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world” (John 17:18). We understand perfectly what Christ meant when he said, “I have sent them into the world.” He meant that he commissioned us, or appointed us. No one thinks that we were in heaven with Christ and incarnated into the flesh. Christ said, “As you have sent me, I have sent them.” So, however we take the phrase that Christ sent us, that is how we should understand the phrase that God sent Christ.

Buzzard, pp. 154-157
Norton, pp. 246-248

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:02 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:54 am
From John 5: How many of us could say, "Whatever I see God the Father doing, these things I do in like manner?" Obviously, none of us could say that. No mere human can do the things that the Father does or has done - create the heavens and the earth, create the animals, create the vegetation, create man, forgive sins, send people to heaven or hell, instantly heal people, "override" natural laws, create weather, or stop weather, raise the dead, etc., etc.
There is a lot wrong with that post, but suffice it to say that there is nothing in the context of this passage that suggests he has any of those creation events and so forth in view.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:29 pm

John the Baptist said that Jesus "existed before me", even though John was born 6 months before Jesus. Jesus said, "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father. His disciple said, 'LO, NOW YOU ARE SPEAKING PLAINLY AND ARE NOT USING A FIGURE OF SPEECH.'" John 16:28-29

There's no figure of speech here, just as His disciples said. HE LITERALLY CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER AND CAME INTO THE WORLD. THEN HE WAS LITERALLY LEAVING THE WORLD AGAIN AND GOING TO THE FATHER.

Your interpretation or the Jews interpretation asserts that He was using a figure of speech in the verses I previously posted, but this passage makes it crystal clear that He was doing that then or in these verses.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:32 pm

Correction: NOT doing that then or now.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:31 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:29 pm
John the Baptist said that Jesus "existed before me", even though John was born 6 months before Jesus. Jesus said, "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father. His disciple said, 'LO, NOW YOU ARE SPEAKING PLAINLY AND ARE NOT USING A FIGURE OF SPEECH.'" John 16:28-29

There's no figure of speech here, just as His disciples said. HE LITERALLY CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER AND CAME INTO THE WORLD. THEN HE WAS LITERALLY LEAVING THE WORLD AGAIN AND GOING TO THE FATHER.

Your interpretation or the Jews interpretation asserts that He was using a figure of speech in the verses I previously posted, but this passage makes it crystal clear that He was doing that then or in these verses.
I have acknowledged before that some of the pre-existence passages are difficult. Arius and many non-trinitarians have believed in pre-existence and I'm not sure how to take that as a concept. But, again, pre-existence does not equate to eternality or to being a part of some sort of godhead. That said, this isn't necessarily a pre-existence passage. I can't formalize it exactly, but I tend to think that descriptions throughout scripture outside of our creation can't be understood from our time-bound and even causal pre-conceptions. Time may not be linear in "heaven." That said...

He had been speaking to them in veiled proverbs and allegories - in contrast, this was a clear and direct teaching. Figurative language is not even of the same character as proverbs/allegories. Here, he wasn't talking about plants or crops or something else as a means to convey a truth. It doesn't really mean that this phrase is meant to be literal but that he was speaking of an actual truth. But, in speaking of the actual truth he was using a phrase which literally didn't necessarily mean that he was in one place but is now in another and would be going back. But, that he clearly and simply was sent from God and was born and would be going to God who sent him. It doesn't say "returning" or "going back" but simply "going" or "continuing his journey to" his Father. Re: "coming into this world" we often speak like this when babies are born today.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:19 am

darinhouston wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:31 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:29 pm
John the Baptist said that Jesus "existed before me", even though John was born 6 months before Jesus. Jesus said, "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father. His disciple said, 'LO, NOW YOU ARE SPEAKING PLAINLY AND ARE NOT USING A FIGURE OF SPEECH.'" John 16:28-29

There's no figure of speech here, just as His disciples said. HE LITERALLY CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER AND CAME INTO THE WORLD. THEN HE WAS LITERALLY LEAVING THE WORLD AGAIN AND GOING TO THE FATHER.



I have acknowledged before that some of the pre-existence passages are difficult. Arius and many non-trinitarians have believed in pre-existence and I'm not sure how to take that as a concept. But, again, pre-existence does not equate to eternality or to being a part of some sort of godhead.

Dwight - Nowhere in the Bible do we read of any man who existed prior to his physical birth, other than Jesus. Micah tells us about this "ruler of Israel" who came "forth from Bethlehem" (that LITERALLY HAPPENED JUST AS HIS COMING FROM HEAVEN IS LITERAL), whose "goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity." I believe we can take those words literally too (since they are in the same passage), meaning that HE WAS ETERNAL. Also in John 17:5, Jesus said, "Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." This verse also can be taken literally. If not, then Jesus is just toying with us, implying that things are literally true, when actually they are not. That would not be consistent with God's character.

That said, this isn't necessarily a pre-existence passage.

Dwight - It obviously IS, just as John 17:5 is.

I can't formalize it exactly, but I tend to think that descriptions throughout scripture outside of our creation can't be understood from our time-bound and even causal pre-conceptions. Time may not be linear in "heaven." That said...

Dwight - If God didn't want us to understand His words, even about things outside of our creation, then why did He speak them to us? I can't imagine Him thinking, "I know they can't understand these words, but I'm going to speak them anyway." God is not a sadist. By the way, I never had a pre-conception that Jesus existed before His physical life, or that He came from heaven and then, later, went back to heaven. I ONLY learned that from God's words and Jesus' words in the Bible.

It doesn't really mean that this phrase is meant to be literal but that he was speaking of an actual truth.

Dwight - So when his disciples said, "Now you are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.", it doesn't really mean that Jesus meant the phrase literally? OF COURSE IT DOES! Yes, literally, Jesus was in one place, heaven, but is now in another, earth, and would be going back - to heaven. Since He literally said, "I am (physically) leaving the world again", then that obviously means that He had to physically go somewhere else. And He told them where He was going - "to the Father". Where was the Father? (Our Father WHO IS IN HEAVEN)

Re: "coming into this world" we often speak like this when babies are born today.

Dwight - The same is true of Jesus. When He was born as a baby, He came into this world. Unlike every other baby, however, Jesus existed prior to His physical birth, during which time He made the world.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:40 am

"Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, 'I am the bread that came down out of heaven.' They were saying, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven.'?" John 6:41-42

It's clear that the Jews understood Jesus perfectly here. They did not know about the incarnation, but they certainly knew that Jesus was literally saying that He had come down out of heaven. The words "therefore" and "because" in this passage make it clear that THAT IS WHY THEY WERE GRUMBLING. Jesus did not merely come into this world, which can be said of every baby, but He literally CAME DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN.

Did He pre-exist? Of course. Was He eternal? We know from this and many other scriptures that He was. No mere man ever pre-existed. Only God in the flesh could pre-exist and be called eternal. A mere man's existence begins at conception and then he dies once. Hebrews 9:27 No mere man was ever eternal. Jesus always was, then He came into the world physically from heaven, known as the Word before His conception (John 1:14), died once physically as a man, was physically resurrected, and then returned to heaven.

Nor does the Bible tell us of a person or being that God "begot" or created long before the creation in Genesis 1, who was some kind of elevated man, but who was not God Himself. This type of "creature" is a mere fantasy in the minds of some men. But the man that the Bible does present, Jesus, is called God, came literally from God (and was God) in heaven, did the works of God that no mere man could do ("If I had not done among them the works which NO ONE ELSE DID, they would not have sin; ..." John 15:24), had the authority of God, spoke the words of God, was sinless as God is, obeyed God and honored Him, and gave Himself as a sacrifice for our sins, as God did (God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19), and then returned to heaven, where He was before.

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