Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:22 pm

" For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead."

I don't know what anyone else sees, but I don't see a Trinity of Gods by looking at the creation and understanding this by the things that are made.

If we " let the Bible interpret the Bible", as people often say, there is only one way that the one True God ever had sons/ children.
They were "born of the Spirit".

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:46 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:22 pm
" For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead."

I don't know what anyone else sees, but I don't see a Trinity of Gods by looking at the creation and understanding this by the things that are made.

If we " let the Bible interpret the Bible", as people often say, there is only one way that the one True God ever had sons/ children.
They were "born of the Spirit".
This passage from Romans 1:20 is translated various ways. But, why anyone would translate θειότης as "godhead" seems to me to be the ultimate in translation bias. It's better (and frequently) translated "godness" or "divinity" or "divine nature" - godhead implies something really loaded towards a plural God but is not in any way justified by context or historical usage.

Here are translation notes from Revised English Bible...
REV translation notes wrote:“divine nature.” The Greek word is theiotes (#2305 θειότης pronounced thay-ah’-tais), and it means “the quality or characteristic(s) pert. to deity, divinity, divine nature, divineness” (BDAG lexicon). It only occurs here in the Greek NT, and is a rare word. Our only secular documentation occurs after the 4th century. As BDAG says, it pertains to the quality or characteristics pertaining to God, so when we see what God has made, we learn about His character. Of course, this is to be taken in the scope of the whole Bible, because there are certainly things about creation that are due to the Devil and the Fall, not to God.

The KJV translates the word theiotes as “Godhead,” but no modern version does. It must be remembered that in 1611 the Greek manuscripts that allow us to properly understand the word had not been discovered. “Godhead” is an inaccurate translation. Besides the fact that God is not a Trinity, there is nothing in nature that points to any such thing. Nothing in nature is three separate things and one thing at the same time, especially nothing that could have been known as such thousands of years before Christ.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:46 pm
commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:22 pm
" For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead."

I don't know what anyone else sees, but I don't see a Trinity of Gods by looking at the creation and understanding this by the things that are made.

Dwight - Attributes refers to His character, not the "makeup" of His being. The testimony of His word gives us that information.



If we " let the Bible interpret the Bible", as people often say, there is only one way that the one True God ever had sons/ children.
They were "born of the Spirit".

Dwight - Wasn't Jesus born of the flesh too, since Mary was His mother?

Besides the fact that God is not a Trinity, there is nothing in nature that points to any such thing. Nothing in nature is three separate things and one thing at the same time, especially nothing that could have been known as such thousands of years before Christ.

Dwight - There is no necessity for nature to reveal the Trinity. The New Testament does that quite well. Also, we know that before Jesus, no one knew about the Trinity. John 1:18 tells us that Jesus has "explained Him (the Father). How did Jesus explain Him, since they, for the most part,knew God's character already from the Old Testament? We know that Jesus gave them and us more explanation of the 'makeup" of God Himself.

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:26 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 pm
Dwight - There is no necessity for nature to reveal the Trinity. The New Testament does that quite well. Also, we know that before Jesus, no one knew about the Trinity. John 1:18 tells us that Jesus has "explained Him (the Father). How did Jesus explain Him, since they, for the most part,knew God's character already from the Old Testament? We know that Jesus gave them and us more explanation of the 'makeup" of God Himself.
They knew about the one true God through the Father Abraham
"For I have singled him out to command his sons and his household after him to maintain the way of the Lord through just and upright living."
Jesus was explaining the same Law of God and the power of the Holy Spirit that was given to Abraham, because the Levitical law wasn't it.
Abraham was joined to God and they were one Spirit.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:09 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:26 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 pm
Dwight - There is no necessity for nature to reveal the Trinity. The New Testament does that quite well. Also, we know that before Jesus, no one knew about the Trinity. John 1:18 tells us that Jesus has "explained Him (the Father). How did Jesus explain Him, since they, for the most part,knew God's character already from the Old Testament? We know that Jesus gave them and us more explanation of the 'makeup" of God Himself.
They knew about the one true God through the Father Abraham
"For I have singled him out to command his sons and his household after him to maintain the way of the Lord through just and upright living."
Jesus was explaining the same Law of God and the power of the Holy Spirit that was given to Abraham, because the Levitical law wasn't it.
Abraham was joined to God and they were one Spirit.
Dwight - Your speech about Abraham is quite strange. Not even Paul spoke about him that way. You almost deify him. Where did you get "Abraham was joined to God and they were one Spirit?" Also, "Jesus was explaining the same Law of God and the power of the Holy Spirit that was given to Abraham ..."???? Again, neither Paul nor Jesus ever said this. If what you say is true, then why does the Bible not tell us that? I daresay that Abraham had nowhere near the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus had. Also, you continue to be obsessed with this "Law of God" that preceded the Mosaic Law -Why? The Bible has little to say about it. Jesus had a lot more to say than Abraham ever knew.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:14 pm

Did the "Father Abraham" tell them about his visit from the preincarnate Christ, Melchizedek? Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus and was glad.. Abraham knew that Melchizedek was greater than himself.

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:48 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:14 pm
Did the "Father Abraham" tell them about his visit from the preincarnate Christ, Melchizedek? Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus and was glad.. Abraham knew that Melchizedek was greater than himself.
Mel wasn't Jesus. He was one of the " forerunners that entered in for us."(Hebrews 6:20) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were also "forerunners that entered in for us."
"Many will come from east to west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

What does this verse mean to you?
"If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed."

Back to the ministry of Mel and Abraham.
Abraham says "I have raised my hand to God Most High and have taken an oath."
The ministry of Mel and Abraham was not without proof.
In Hebrews they are pointing to the failure of the Levitical law as proof that God was not with them.
On the contrary, they use Mel and Abraham as living proof that if you follow God's immutable council( His word/Law) you will not fail.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:07 pm

commonsense wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:48 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:14 pm
Did the "Father Abraham" tell them about his visit from the preincarnate Christ, Melchizedek? Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus and was glad.. Abraham knew that Melchizedek was greater than himself.
Mel wasn't Jesus. He was one of the " forerunners that entered in for us."(Hebrews 6:20) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were also "forerunners that entered in for us."
"Many will come from east to west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

Dwight - The more you say, the more bizarre it gets. The patriarchs were not forerunners that entered the veil (into the Holy of Holies in heaven) for us - only Jesus was. He entered with His blood. They, on the other hand, being only men, had nothing to offer that would allow them in. The only reason they could even be in heaven was because Jesus suffered and died for their forgiveness, (as well as ours).

What does this verse mean to you?
"If you belong to Christ, you are Abraham's seed."

Dwight - It means that we, who have faith in Jesus and have become part of His body, are the seed of Abraham, by which God promised that the whole world would be blessed.

Back to the ministry of Mel and Abraham.
Abraham says "I have raised my hand to God Most High and have taken an oath."
The ministry of Mel and Abraham was not without proof.
In Hebrews they are pointing to the failure of the Levitical law as proof that God was not with them.
On the contrary, they use Mel and Abraham as living proof that if you follow God's immutable council( His word/Law) you will not fail.

Dwight - I don't see any such message in Hebrews. That's all speculation (and weird!)

Dwight - The only law that we are under is the law of Christ, also called the law of freedom. But we're not saved by keeping that law or any law. We're saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 We remain saved as we remain in faith and abide in Him

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:16 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:07 pm
Dwight - It means that we, who have faith in Jesus and have become part of His body, are the seed of Abraham, by which God promised that the whole world would be blessed.
Read the parable of the sower and the seed. Abraham was blessed by God in his own lifetime. "Those who bless(honor) Abraham will be blessed."
dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:07 pm

Dwight - The only law that we are under is the law of Christ, also called the law of freedom. But we're not saved by keeping that law or any law. We're saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 We remain saved as we remain in faith and abide in Him
We are under the Law of God/Law of Christ which is to love God and love others as ourselves. Abiding in God means keeping His commandments.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:55 am

God told Abraham that He would make him into a great nation. Those who bless that nation, not just Abraham, would be blessed. That was the nation of Israel, until they rejected their Messiah. Now the blessing is on us, who are in Christ, Abraham's seed. The blessing of Abraham is now on the church of Jesus worldwide, Jew or Gentile.

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