Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:45 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:38 am
The question is in what context God is said to be with us in Christ. Wasn't the temple considered another way God was with us? Christ was the perfected Temple of the Holy Spirit and now the Church (as the Body of Christ) is collectively the Temple of the Holy Spirit. (not "literally" his body..... but I digress). This is the way God is now with the world.
Biblical Unitarian wrote:The name can be translated as, “God with us” or “God is with us.” We know that God was with the people in Jesus Christ, and Jesus himself said that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father.

The significance of the name is symbolic. God was with us, not literally, but in His Son, as 2 Cor. 5:19 (NASB) indicates: “That God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.” It is important to read exactly what was written: God was in Christ, not God was Christ. Symbolism in names can be seen throughout the Bible. It is not unique to Jesus Christ. Many people were given names that would cause great problems if believed literally. Are we to believe that Elijah was “God Jehovah,” or that Bithiah, a daughter of Pharaoh, was the sister of Jesus because her name is “daughter of Jehovah?” Are we to believe that Dibri, not Jesus, was the “Promise of Jehovah,” or that Eliab was the real Messiah since his name means “My God [is my] father?” Of course not. It would be a great mistake to claim that the meaning of a name proves a literal truth. We know that Jesus’ name is very significant—it communicates the truth that, as the Son of God and as the image of God, God is with us in Jesus, but the name does not make Jesus God.

With regard to another example in Jeremiah 23:6. ("This is the name by which he will be called…the Lord our Righteousness.")

When something is “called” a certain name, that does not mean that it is literally what it is called. Jerusalem is also called “the Lord our Righteousness,” and Jerusalem is obviously not God (Jer. 33:16). So, calling something “the Lord our Righteousness” does not make it God. Abraham called the mountain on which he was about to sacrifice Isaac “the Lord will provide,” and no one would believe that the mountain was Yahweh. Similarly, no one would believe an altar was Yahweh, even if Moses called it that: “Moses built an altar and called it ‘the Lord is my Banner’” (Ex. 17:15). Later, Gideon built an altar and called it Yahweh: “So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it ‘The Lord is Peace.’ To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites” (Judges 6:24). These verses prove conclusively that just because something is called Yahweh, that does not make it Yahweh.

Dwight - You conveniently overlook the fact that Elijah, Bithiah, Dibri, and Eliab were not conceived by the Holy Spirit, nor were they called the son of the Most High, nor did God give them the throne of David, nor promise them that they would reign over the house of Jacob forever, nor were they told that they would save their people from their sins.

Dwight - When Jesus is called "Immanuel", God with us, we KNOW it means exactly what it says.

The Messiah will be called (not will be) “the Lord our Righteousness” because God Almighty will work His righteousness through His anointed one, Jesus the Christ. The city of Jerusalem will also be called “the Lord our Righteousness” because God will work His righteousness there, and that righteousness will reach over the entire world (For more on “names” and “called,” see the notes on Matt. 1:23).
Dwight - As for Jerusalem and other inanimate objects given names of God or attributes of His, it's a pretty ignorant person who would believe that they were actually God, the Messiah, etc.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm

commonsense wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:16 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:38 am
This is the way God is now with the world.
Exactly. The Spirit of God is brought into the physical world through people who are "born of the Spirit."
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:44 am

Dwight - Too bad for Abraham then - we have no scripture telling us that he was born of the Spirit. Nor Isaac, Jacob, Job, Joseph, and the list goes on.

Dwight - The Spirit of God is not limited to only indwelling believers. "The Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Genesis 1:2 He shows up whenever and wherever He wants to.

Dwight, Jesus became a Son of God when the Holy Spirit came upon Him.

Dwight - That's incorrect. Luke 1:35 He was CONCEIVED in Mary's womb, as the Son of God. He didn't become the Son of God at His baptism.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:18 pm

Darin wrote:
But, why anyone would translate θειότης as "godhead" seems to me to be the ultimate in translation bias. It's better (and frequently) translated "godness" or "divinity" or "divine nature" - godhead implies something really loaded towards a plural God but is not in any way justified by context or historical usage.
Jesus is "God" in the sense of being divine like His Father, but not in the sense of either BEING His Father, or being a second God.
And Paidion responded:
Correct. I think a good translation of "θειότης" would be "deity".
Colossians 2:9
9. For in Him all the fullness (Grk pleroma) of Deity dwells in bodily form,

When you say Jesus is deity or of divine nature, what are you speaking of? His essence; His office? The passage in Colossians informs us that He is completely full of deity. How can you say then He is not a God if not part of the Trinity? It seems you are stuck with more than one god or Jesus is part of a trinity or at least binity.

Consider:

John 20:26-29
New American Standard Bible
26 Eight days later His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”


"My Lord and my God" is literally in the Greek "the Lord of me and the God of me" with the article preceding both "Lord" and "God". If Jesus is not part of a Trinity, Why no rebuke?

And consider:

Malachi 3:1
New American Standard Bible

3. “Behold, I am sending My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And the Lord, whom you are seeking, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of armies.


Here we have a prophecy regarding the coming of John the Baptist as the forerunner of the Christ. But in the above passage "Lord" refers to God, as always in the Old Testament and the passage in Malachi. Lord in the New Testament refers to Christ except where the OT is quoted. The OT prophecy refers to the Lord coming but He comes as Christ.
Last edited by Homer on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:15 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - Too bad for Abraham then - we have no scripture telling us that he was born of the Spirit. Nor Isaac, Jacob, Job, Joseph, and the list goes on.
If you don't have the Spirit of God, you won't be "fruitful".
Gal. 4:29 "But he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him(Isaac, Jacob etc.) who was born by the Spirit."
Genesis 41:38 " " Can we find such a one( Joseph) as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God."

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - That's incorrect. Luke 1:35 He was CONCEIVED in Mary's womb, as the Son of God. He didn't become the Son of God at His baptism.
"So Christ did not exalt Himself to be made high priest, but was appointed by Him who said to him "You are my Son,today I have begotten you."
It was when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus that a voice from heaven said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - The Spirit of God is not limited to only indwelling believers. "The Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Genesis 1:2 He shows up whenever and wherever He wants to.
God is not limited to only indwelling believers. That's true. That's why I asked before, if the the whole world cannot contain God, how can God be contained in one man?

I was referring to the intangible things of God that those who are "born of the Spirit" bring into the world such as love, light, peace, joy, kindness, goodness, wisdom etc. etc.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:22 pm

Homer wrote:Colossians 2:9
9. For in Him all the fullness (Grk pleroma) of Deity dwells in bodily form,

When you say Jesus is deity or of divine nature, what are you speaking of? His essence; His office? The passage in Colossians informs us that He is completely full of deity. How can you say then He is not a God if not part of the Trinity? It seems you are stuck with more than one god or Jesus is part of a trinity or at least binity.
I don't think it matters completely what you mean by deity in this verse - it is not Jesus Himself who is said here to “be” "deity." This is speaking of something completely different (though related). Whatever it is, it is not Jesus Himself who is said to "be" the fullness of "deity" in this verse. The "deity" spoken of here is said to be "in Him" fully. Aren't we all called to seek the fullness of the Holy Spirit in our selves? He was fully what we can only hope and aspire to be.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:21 am

commonsense wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:15 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - Too bad for Abraham then - we have no scripture telling us that he was born of the Spirit. Nor Isaac, Jacob, Job, Joseph, and the list goes on.
If you don't have the Spirit of God, you won't be "fruitful".
Gal. 4:29 "But he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him(Isaac, Jacob etc.) who was born by the Spirit."
Genesis 41:38 " " Can we find such a one( Joseph) as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God."

Dwight - I think there is some misquoting here. "But as at that time he who was born ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, persecuted him (who was born) ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." (NOT born BY the Spirit) There is a big difference. Ishmael was born according to (the plans of) Abraham and Sarah's fleshly nature. Isaac was born according to (the plans of) the Holy Spirit, not by or of the Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit was with these people, as they were obedient to God, but not (generally) IN them, which happens only after Jesus died and was raised.

Dwight - Again, regarding Pharoah's words about Joseph, another misquote. It reads, "Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?" Pharoah didn't know anything about the Holy Spirit. He assumed that Joseph had some divine spirit in him - Pharoah probably believed in MANY divine spirits. Again, I'm sure the Holy Spirit was WITH Joseph, but not IN him.

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - That's incorrect. Luke 1:35 He was CONCEIVED in Mary's womb, as the Son of God. He didn't become the Son of God at His baptism.


"So Christ did not exalt Himself to be made high priest, but was appointed by Him who said to him "You are my Son,today I have begotten you."
It was when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus that a voice from heaven said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Dwight - You seem to be saying that when the Father said, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you.", that that was at the same time as Jesus' baptism, but I don't see that in the scripture. It looks like Jesus was begotten when Mary gave birth to Him.

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Dwight - The Spirit of God is not limited to only indwelling believers. "The Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Genesis 1:2 He shows up whenever and wherever He wants to.


God is not limited to only indwelling believers. That's true. That's why I asked before, if the the whole world cannot contain God, how can God be contained in one man?

Dwight - If He was just a man, then you're right, He can't. But if He was God in the flesh, then there's no problem.

I was referring to the intangible things of God that those who are "born of the Spirit" bring into the world such as love, light, peace, joy, kindness, goodness, wisdom etc. etc.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:48 am

Homer wrote: And consider:

Malachi 3:1
New American Standard Bible

3. “Behold, I am sending My messenger, and he will clear a way before Me. And the Lord, whom you are seeking, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of armies.

Here we have a prophecy regarding the coming of John the Baptist as the forerunner of the Christ. But in the above passage "Lord" refers to God, as always in the Old Testament and the passage in Malachi. Lord in the New Testament refers to Christ except where the OT is quoted. The OT prophecy refers to the Lord coming but He comes as Christ.
There is considerable debate on who the messenger is here, but I think it's pretty clear from New Testament passages that it is John the Baptist in view. The question of the Lord coming to the Temple is very plausibly a question of agency - just as the Lord comes on the clouds in Judgment, He can come in various ways, including the awaited Messiah.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:40 am

Homer wrote:Consider:

John 20:26-29
New American Standard Bible
26 Eight days later His disciples were again inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

"My Lord and my God" is literally in the Greek "the Lord of me and the God of me" with the article preceding both "Lord" and "God". If Jesus is not part of a Trinity, Why no rebuke?
Most trinitarian scholars who fully believe in Jesus being God Himself or a member of the Godhead do not believe Thomas had Yahweh, or the God of their forefathers, or a member of the Trinity in mind when he made this utterance. What he exactly meant is subject to considerable debate, but generally the consensus view I believe is that he meant something more generic by the use of theos - something less than Yahweh but more than Lord - the uttermost authority and respect, but not really God Himself.

By way of example, from "Concessions of Trinitarians," by John Wilson, J.D. Michaelis (a Trinitarian) puts it well in saying:
Michaelis wrote:I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I am therefore inclined to understand this expression, which broke out in the height of his astonishment, in a figurative sense, denoting only “whom I shall ever reverence in the highest degree”…Or a person raised from the dead might be regarded as a divinity; for the word God is not always used in the strict doctrinal sense”... Link to text in book online

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:09 am

darinhouston wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:40 am


Dwight - Of course you would question the clear words of Thomas - My Lord and My God! What, do you think Thomas was using God's name in vain?

Michaelis wrote:I do not affirm that Thomas passed all at once from the extreme of doubt to the highest degree of faith, and acknowledged Christ to be the true God. This appears to me too much for the then existing knowledge of the disciples; and we have no intimation that they recognized the divine nature of Christ before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Dwight - Extreme of doubt?? Really??? After walking with Jesus for 3 1/2 years, he was in EXTREME DOUBT??? I don't think so. To be sure, he had SOME doubt, but in no way could it have been extreme.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:46 am

Matthew 23:34 - Who is "I" in this verse? Who is "I" in verse 37? In 34 apparently Jesus is prophesying what He will do in the future, after He returns to heaven. How could any man predict what happens on earth and even control it, after he is gone? In 37 Jesus tells us what He wanted to do throughout the centuries in the past, but the Israelites were unwilling. How could any man claim that He had the prerogative to affect change in a nation over a period of centuries?

There is only one answer. Jesus is God in the flesh.

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