Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 31, 2021 9:24 am

Homer wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 6:57 pm
Darin,

I'm trying to catch up a bit. Earlier you wrote:
Homer wrote:
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity (theotetos) dwells bodily,
I don't deny that Jesus was "divine" or "deity" in some sense, as that term is also used of others.
I am not sure of what you mean here. What others are you thinking of and what circumstances? Do you think they were deity, or thought to be deity, in the same sense as Christians think of Jesus as Deity?
I don't see the warrant for your precise definition of "theotetos." Can you support that? I see it as just another use of a term like "deity" generally, even if heightened in the special way in which Jesus is closely connected to his Father. I really don't understand how people can be so certain of terms that are only used once in scripture.


Homer wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 6:57 pm
But, assuming "being deity" is the same as ontologically existing as God, does it actually say in this instance that "He was the whole fullness of deity?" No. It says his body housed or contained (etc.) the fullness of deity.
This statement seems to be a quibble over words, a distinction without a difference. Pleroma (fullness) refers to His essence, the totality of attributes and powers. The Greek Spiros Zodhiates comments that it "means that in the body of Christ as it was constituted God was in His fullness and not simply His manifestation."
I'm not sure I agree with you. I think it's an important distinction. As a side note, the Spiros Zodhiates is a bit circular don't you think? (using fulness to describe his fulness). I do think it connotes more than "just" indwelling in Jesus, but that his whole life and living out of the spirit and his obedience and example FULLY represent and reveal to us and we actually experience and fully understand God through Jesus. That's more than just a "container" for his spirit, but it is a great chasm from "being" Yahweh.
Homer wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 6:57 pm
So, he was the vessel, not the contents. He was the "Temple" of the fullness of the Holy Spirit - much as we are said to be, for example, in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (if in part compared to his fullness). His sinlessness permitted him to be that dwelling --
I would say He was the vessel and the contents, although the vessel was a human body. Truly "God with us". Do you mean His sinlessness permitted Him to "become" that dwelling or "remain" that dwelling? Seems to me He was that dwelling "from the get go". We do not become the temple of the Holy Spirit until certain conditions are met and remain the temple only if "Faithful until death".
I don't know and scripture doesn't reveal fully, but he certainly had a unique purpose being born to be Messiah and as born without sin could well have been given the fullness of the spirit as his own spiritual identity different from us having perhaps (again this is philosophical conjecture) a dual spiritual identify - a carnal and Holy Spirit consisting our "soul" or "spirit" -- we certainly believe we have a divine spirit in us that guides us and convicts us before we are converted - we can grieve that spirit and I believe it infills us and perhaps bonds with or replaces our carnal spirit as we grow in holiness, and it can leave us in measure as we fail to grow and are attracted to sins, etc. It is possible that Jesus never lost any measure of the fullness of the Spirit and never grieved it and had a fulness from the get go he never lost. But, that doesn't make the man, Jesus, Yahweh (or an undivided eternal part of Yahweh).

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 31, 2021 12:04 pm

Another reference to the deity of Jesus:

" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ..." 2 Corinthians 5:19

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Mon May 31, 2021 1:18 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:01 am
For us, looking back and applying it forward, God was with them in a pillar of fire, or in the temple/holy of holies.
God was with them the same way He is with us today, in the Spirit which is in the hearts and minds of the people.
"The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart..."
Seek the Lord with all your heart mind and soul and you shall find Him."
"Therefore circumcise your hearts..."
'If your hearts turn away and go after other gods..."
The list goes on and on.

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:04 pm
" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ..." 2 Corinthians 5:19
The Holy Spirit (God) was in a lot of people in both the Old and New Testaments.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 31, 2021 9:13 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:04 pm
Another reference to the deity of Jesus:

" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ..." 2 Corinthians 5:19
What PRECISELY does "in Christ" mean to you in this context?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 31, 2021 9:36 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:13 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:04 pm
Another reference to the deity of Jesus:

" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ..." 2 Corinthians 5:19
What PRECISELY does "in Christ" mean to you in this context?
Dwight - I think the answer is found in what Jesus said: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is IN ME?" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

commonsense
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by commonsense » Mon May 31, 2021 10:08 pm

[/quote]

Dwight - I think the answer is found in what Jesus said: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is IN ME?" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit of God was seen in others as well.
Isaac -Genesis 26:28 "We have certainly SEEN that the Lord is with you."
Joseph- " Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD."
Moses-"So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold the skin of his face shone."

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 31, 2021 10:28 pm

commonsense wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:08 pm
Dwight - I think the answer is found in what Jesus said: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is IN ME?" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit of God was seen in others as well.
Isaac -Genesis 26:28 "We have certainly SEEN that the Lord is with you."
Joseph- " Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD."
Moses-"So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold the skin of his face shone."
[/quote]

Dwight - Will you never stop denegrating Jesus and elevating mere men? The difference between Isaac, Joseph, and Moses and Jesus is infinite.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:34 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:36 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:13 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 12:04 pm
Another reference to the deity of Jesus:

" ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ..." 2 Corinthians 5:19
What PRECISELY does "in Christ" mean to you in this context?
Dwight - I think the answer is found in what Jesus said: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is IN ME?" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
You lean heavily on this term - I think it's fair to know what you think it means and how that uniquely proves your point. You've provided not an explanation or a definition, but an example. Other examples have been provided how we are said to be "in Christ" as well, so it strikes me that it doesn't prove your point. I'm trying to reason with you fairly. Can you elaborate?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:23 am

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:34 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:36 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:13 pm


What PRECISELY does "in Christ" mean to you in this context?
Dwight - I think the answer is found in what Jesus said: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is IN ME?" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
You lean heavily on this term - I think it's fair to know what you think it means and how that uniquely proves your point. You've provided not an explanation or a definition, but an example. Other examples have been provided how we are said to be "in Christ" as well, so it strikes me that it doesn't prove your point. I'm trying to reason with you fairly. Can you elaborate?
Dwight - Yes, I do lean heavily on the term "in Christ", because the Bible does. Paul does in Ephesians 1 - the term or a close equivalent of the term is used 15 times in that chapter: vs. 1 - in Christ Jesus, vs 3 - in Christ, vs. 4 - in Him, vs. 5 - through Jesus Christ, vs. 6 - in the Beloved, vs. 7 - in Him, vs. 9 - in Him, vs. 10 - in Christ, in Him, vs. 12 - in Christ, vs. 13 - in Him (twice), vs.15 - in the Lord Jesus, vs. 17 - in the knowledge of Him, vs. 20 - in Christ

Dwight - Paul never explained to us exactly what he meant by "in Christ", as far as I know. He assumed that we would understand.

Dwight - But, to me, it means to "stay close to, stay in fellowship with, stay in His word, stay in prayer, stay in obedience"
Dwight - Jesus said, "Abide in Me" several times in John 15.

Dwight - Did you notice that Jesus did not explain to Philip what He meant by "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? Jesus did not elaborate for us exactly what He meant by "Abide in Me". He did say that we are like branches, connected to the vine (Him), and that we should stay connected.

Dwight - But for US to "be in Christ" has to be quite different than "GOD in Christ", because we are not God. Now I think it is implied that "God in Christ" is ontological, that Paul was referring to Christ's Being and God's Being, that they are One, as Jesus Himself said.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:46 pm

Dwight, it sounds like you have a fairly conventional understanding of the term -- so, given this, how does God being "in Christ" reconciling the world to himself prove the deity of Christ? (if I understood you correctly, that was your point).

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