Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:54 am

Paidion>>>Notice that the passage from Galatians specifies that it was God the Father who raised Jesus from the dead. If the Father had not raised him, he'd still be dead.<<<

If the Father had not raised Him that would have meant that He was not the One Who (was) promised to come. The Logos is the “eternal plan” of Creation that exists in this Being Who is God, and the appearance of the Logos (God) in Creation necessarily destined Him to live the life He lived. Just as Jesus was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Acts 2:23, Revelation 13:8), so also was He resurrected from the foundation of the world. He identified Himself as the Resurrection (John 11:25) because He was (God's) Life Himself, and it was impossible for death to hold Him (Acts 2:24). Death attempted to (did) swallow Him, and because of Who He was (is) He “burst” forth destroying (the body of) death (2 Timothy 1:10) in the process. Yes, the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Galatians 1:1), and yes, Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19), and yes again, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11). This (particular kind of)) “information” we have from Scripture, and other of the same quality, witnesses to the Trinitarian State of the Creator.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:02 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:20 pm
Jesus commanded healings. Where does it say that He prayed for healings to occur?
Where does it say that only God can command healings or that only God has that power. As long as you have the spiritual authority of the Father to do so, it is still the Father doing it. The father gave Jesus this authority and power and Jesus gave it to the apostles. Jesus consistently stated all He did was in the power of the Father/Spirit and he likewise gave the apostles the authority and power to heal the sick - not to pray for the sick, but to heal the sick. They had authority and power, but it was derivative from Jesus whose was derivative ultimately of the Father.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:08 am

Well explained, Darin!

But for a Trinitarian, the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead, as Otherness seems to say.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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darinhouston
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:31 am

Otherness wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:54 am
Paidion>>>Notice that the passage from Galatians specifies that it was God the Father who raised Jesus from the dead. If the Father had not raised him, he'd still be dead.<<<

If the Father had not raised Him that would have meant that He was not the One Who (was) promised to come. The Logos is the “eternal plan” of Creation that exists in this Being Who is God, and the appearance of the Logos (God) in Creation necessarily destined Him to live the life He lived. Just as Jesus was “slain from the foundation of the world” (Acts 2:23, Revelation 13:8), so also was He resurrected from the foundation of the world. He identified Himself as the Resurrection (John 11:25) because He was (God's) Life Himself, and it was impossible for death to hold Him (Acts 2:24). Death attempted to (did) swallow Him, and because of Who He was (is) He “burst” forth destroying (the body of) death (2 Timothy 1:10) in the process. Yes, the Father raised Jesus from the dead (Galatians 1:1), and yes, Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19), and yes again, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11). This (particular kind of)) “information” we have from Scripture, and other of the same quality, witnesses to the Trinitarian State of the Creator.
We need to let figures of speech be just that. Peter told the jews that they had, themselves, crucified the Lord. They played a role in it, but they weren't the ones who actually did it. David's troops captured Jerusalem yet David was said to have done so. Reading it too literally is unwise -- and it leads to illogical conclusions. Scripture clearly says the Father raised him, so the conclusion from your reading would be that Jesus just "is" the Father. No proper "Trinitarian" believes this. So, from a Trinitarian perspective, at least, this should cause one to reconsider that interpretation.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:19 pm

I never claimed to be a "proper Trinitarian". But I do attempt to get my theology from the words of scripture, not the church fathers. But the fact that the scripture says that the Father raised Jesus, Jesus raised Himself, and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, should cause a non-Trinitarian to reconsider his position.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:29 pm

Hi Darin,

You wrote:
We need to let figures of speech be just that. Peter told the jews that they had, themselves, crucified the Lord. They played a role in it, but they weren't the ones who actually did it. David's troops captured Jerusalem yet David was said to have done so. Reading it too literally is unwise -- and it leads to illogical conclusions. Scripture clearly says the Father raised him, so the conclusion from your reading would be that Jesus just "is" the Father. No proper "Trinitarian" believes this. So, from a Trinitarian perspective, at least, this should cause one to reconsider that interpretation.
You seem to have come to an illogical conclusion:

1. Peter said the Jews killed Jesus----------they didn't actually do it.

2. David was said to capture Jerusalem--------he didn't actually do it.

3. Scriptures say the Father raised Jesus--------?????

Your argument would seemingly support Dwight's point that Jesus raised himself? Unless my octogenarian head isn't thinking clearly which isn't unusual

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:02 pm

Darinhouston>>>We need to let figures of speech be just that. Peter told the jews that they had, themselves, crucified the Lord. They played a role in it, but they weren't the ones who actually did it. David's troops captured Jerusalem yet David was said to have done so. Reading it too literally is unwise -- and it leads to illogical conclusions.<<<

I expect you don't mean this, but you do seem to be implying that I'm using Galatians 1:1, John 2:19, and Romans 8:11 as (just) “figures of speech.” Please clarify.

In the mean time, however, consider that “the Jews” are as guilty in this as the wife who contracts a hit on her husband. Pilate wanted to release Jesus, but...you know the story. In the movie “The Passion of the Christ” Mel Gibson used his own hands in the close-up of Jesus being nailed to the cross because he wanted to affirm the truth that he was as responsible for what was happening as the historical person, in your words, “who actually did it.” I see myself as LITERALLY responsible for Jesus' death because I recognize that (my) sin is the reason He went through this. The one who is forgiven much loves much (Luke 7:47), and my love for Him is the equal of the forgiveness I have received from Him, and it is the source of the joy I experience with (because of) Him.

Darinhouston>>Scripture clearly says the Father raised him, so the conclusion from your reading would be that Jesus just "is" the Father. No proper "Trinitarian" believes this. So, from a Trinitarian perspective, at least, this should cause one to reconsider that interpretation.<<<

Again, consider the full testimony of Scripture (e.g., Galatians 1:1, John 2:19, Romans 8:11), and the content and context of my other posts. Obviously I am not saying that “Jesus just 'is' the Father.” All the “data” of Scripture must be balanced, and in the proper proportion, to render a congruent image of the (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) creative dynamic found there. Else we end up with a caricature and the inevitable divisions / denominations that follow, and that have plagued our Christian history right up to this day. Only when that love that binds the Unity of the Creator flows through us, His Body, will we have that “first love” we ought to have for each other...for we are to be the answer to His prayer in John 17.

Paidion>>>But for a Trinitarian, the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead, as Otherness seems to say.<<<

Well...I may seem to say “the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead,” but that is only because what I am actually saying is not being understood. Again, “the Trinity” is the creative dynamic of YHWH in which He is a Father in relationship with a Son, and this is the “blueprint” (Logos) of Creation. The Son is that Image and Likeness that is the Pattern for the “other beings” (children) He intends to create. This Son (Logos) is with Him in eternity (His Eternal Being). That is, He is “Father” in that (because?) the “Son” is with Him.

This Father/Son dynamic is that self-willed State of His Being in His desire to create that which is His first love in creation : the Body of His Son (Christ). The Trinity : Father, Son, Holy Spirit (in being Father, in being Son, He does not cease to be simply “I AM” – Holy Spirit) is Who and What YHWH “chooses” TO BE to be Creator of that that He wills to create.

In this blueprint (Logos) of creation the Son enters creation through the womb of the creature and lives, suffers, and dies, and lives again (rises from death) to carry YHWH's labor, as Creator, to fruition. Again YHWH self wills His triune state because this is the State of Being He exists in as The Creator of that which He wills to create.

YHWH (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) wills all this (including the resurrection) in Eternity (His Eternal Being) “before” any (act of) creation. If you want to characterize this as “the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead,” well...I wouldn't state it that way because it (easily) misconstrues the right relationship of the concepts themselves.

May we be “filled with all the fullness of God” in our common faith so that we may be to the glory of God in the salvation of others.

Love in Christ.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:06 pm

Dwight, you wrote:But the fact that the scripture says that the Father raised Jesus, Jesus raised Himself, and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, should cause a non-Trinitarian to reconsider his position.
It is plainly written that the Father raised Jesus from the dead.(Acts 2:4, 3:15, 4:10, 5:30. 13:30,33, and several other passages).

NOWHERE is it written that he raised himself from the dead.

Nor is it written that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

Romans 8:11 reads:
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (ESV)

But this doesn't say that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. It refers to the Spirit of HIM who raised Jesus from the dead.
That HIM who raised Jesus from the dead was the Father.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:16 pm

But the Spirit of the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Are you suggesting that the Father has a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. If so, where is the scripture to confirm that?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:21 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:06 pm


NOWHERE is it written that he raised himself from the dead.

"Destroy this temple, and in three days I (Jesus) WILL RAISE IT UP"

This says the very thing that you say is found NOWHERE in scripture.

I choose to believe the scripture.

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