Jesus is God

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:36 pm

Dwight wrote:But the Spirit of the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Are you suggesting that the Father has a spirit other than the Holy Spirit.
No. As you say, "The Spirit of the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Are you suggesting that this fact means that the Holy Spirit is a different Person from the Father? If so, where is your evidence?

Do you have a spirit, Dwight? If so, does that imply that your are two persons?

I do not accept the Trinity theory: "God in three Persons; blessed Trinity!"

God is ONE Person.He has a Spirit. I capitalize "Spirit" not because the Spirit is a different divine Person, but because it is God's Spirit.

Jesus is not God either; He is the Son of God. For this reason He is divine.
An analogy is the fact that you are the son of a human being, and for that reason, you too are human.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:54 am

I think we veered into that area of which none of us can say we truly know completely what is true or completely what is not true. Isn't this the area of ontology, or the very being of God Himself? Does God have a Spirit other than the Holy Spirit? Was Jesus' spirit, which He committed to the Father (Luke 23:46) the Holy Spirit or His own Spirit? It appears to be His own in that verse. Yet the scripture tells us that "Now the Lord (Jesus or maybe the Father) IS THE SPIRIT" 2 Corinthians 3:17

So, Biblically, we can say that the Father and/or the Son are the Holy Spirit. So if the Father raised the Son, then it follows that the Holy Spirit raised the Son. Also if the Son is the Spirit and the Spirit raised Him, then, yes, He raised Himself.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:47 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Jesus is not God either; He is the Son of God. For this reason He is divine.
An analogy is the fact that you are the son of a human being, and for that reason, you too are human.
Your analogy is specious. The son of a human is also human. I got that part. Then wouldn't the son of a god also be a god? Yet you slip in "divine", a distinction without a difference. That is, unless the substance is the same while the position (Father/Son) is different.

How do you define God?

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:25 pm

As Thomas Aquinas truly affirmed: God cannot be defined.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Homer
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:35 pm

As Thomas Aquinas truly affirmed: God cannot be defined.
So then He could not be defined as not triune?

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:39 am

Spot on Homer.
Did you notice that there was no response to Jesus' words: "Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up."? Paidion says that no such scripture exists.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:41 am

So then He could not be defined as not triune?
No. God cannot be defined. He is beyond definition.

Trinitarians try to describe God as Triune. But God cannot be defined.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:27 pm

But then, Thomas Aquinas' words or thoughts are not scripture. God can be defined only to the extent that the scripture itself defines Him. As long as we stay within the parameters of scripture, we are safe in defining Him. The scripture itself defines Him numerous times: God is love, God is light, God is omniscient, He is omnipresent, He is omnipotent, He is a consuming fire, He is eternal, He is invisible, He is the only wise God, He is a jealous God, He has one only begotten Son, Jesus, who prior to his incarnation was called the Word, who was with God, and was God. He sent the Holy Spirit, after He raised Jesus from the dead, as a Helper, Comforter, Who teaches us all things and brings to our remembrance the words of Jesus. He is also called the Spirit of Truth, and He will be with us forever.

So, I have to disagree with another church father, Thomas Aquinas. Why do we elevate their words, as if they are scripture? It does appear that non-Trinitarians love to do just that.

Otherness
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Otherness » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:02 pm

Dwight>>>I think we veered into that area of which none of us can say we truly know completely what is true or completely what is not true. Isn't this the area of ontology, or the very being of God Himself?<<<

Yes, this is precisely the issue and the very reason we must let the Holy Spirit, through the Scripture, do “our thinking for us” (Isaiah 55: 8-9), especially here where we are completely out of our element (John 3:12; 8 :23).

Paidion>>>As Thomas Aquinas truly affirmed: God cannot be defined.<<<

This Thomistic maxim needs to be qualified with the words “by man” because, of course, God can certainly define Himself, and reveal His identity as He chooses. As a matter of fact, we Christians believe (actually, know) that He has done this very thing in the life of Jesus.

Jesus has fleshed out for us God's revelation of Himself that He gave in Exodus 3. This One Who (alone) IS, this I AM (this “I”) has come to us as one of us. He took the world upon His shoulders, suffered it to crush Him into the ground (mixing the leaven of His life into our death), rose up and lifted it into heaven [for those who accept Him (Ephesians 2:6)]. Yes...He has certainly defined Himself for us : He is Love.

As far as ontology goes He made this very simple for us in His revelation of Himself as YHWH, that is, He simply is “I.” The confusion and complication comes in because the created “i” that “receives” this revelation spins it in its own corruption (self-centeredness) by measuring this “I” according to its intuitions about itself.

In other words, the “created “i” knows that it cannot possibly truly exist in a triune state, and it projects this unto “I.” The “created i” knows itself to be “a person” and in using this definition of person it “naturally” delimits His PERSON(hood).

YHWH IS! He is Who and What He IS because He is (says, decides) Who and WHAT He IS! This is the ontology of God. If (used only for discussion sake), in His Eternal Being, He “chooses” to exist as Father, Son, Holy Spirit then this is Who and What He IS. There really is no suitable word for “how” He does this, so “chooses” was chosen. It is that we, being “from below,” have no analog for the existential quality of a PERSON-al Being Who simply “IS.”

“I” didn't “become triune,” “I” didn't change from being not triune to being triune because IS just IS. This is the quality of the aseity of YHWH.

Why has He “chosen” to exist this way? For us...rather, for Himself (Colossians 1:16) that He might fulfill all the fullness of Himself, Who fills all in all (Ephesians 1:23). 'I” desired this that is the purpose and the fruit of His creative labor : the Body of Christ. We are His magnum opus, and the whole of creation, the entire cosmos, is merely a construct to bring it about. At the moment of His choosing it will disappear (at His word) as easily as He made it appear (at His word). What will remain is the created “i” who abides in Him because this is where He abides. This created “i” is more substantially real than the cosmos in which it was brought forth because it is the one created thing that exists in the image and likeness of “I.”

Love to you my friends.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus is God

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:42 pm

Otherness wrote:This Thomistic maxim needs to be qualified with the words “by man” because, of course, God can certainly define Himself
Thomas Aquinas truly said that "God" cannot be defined. This is an absolute. Thus God cannot "define Himself" either!

God cannot perform a contradiction in terms.
.
The old Bible school question: "If God is omnipotent, then can He create a stone so large that He cannot lift it?
If He can create such a stone, then there''s something He cannot do—namely, lift that stone.
If He cannot lift the stone, then He is not omnipotent."
However, the fact is that He cannot create such a stone! And this fact DOES NOT limit His omnipotence.
As the Bible school teachers used to put it: "Contradictions are not objects of power."

So likewise, if God is truly undefinable as Thomas Aquinas correctly asserted, then even God cannot define Himself.
And this in no way implies that God is not omnipotent. He can do anything which is not inherently contradictory.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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