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Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:07 pm
by dwight92070
For we dare not forget that it is Jesus' greatness, not ours, that draws Him to us and us to Him. We want to be good enough for God. We want God to be proud of how good we are. It's such a strong impulse, it's been Christianity's favorite heresy from the very beginning. We call it legalism, and it's at the center of all the cults, along with their denials of Jesus' deity.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:00 pm
by darinhouston
dwight92070 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:07 pm
For we dare not forget that it is Jesus' greatness, not ours, that draws Him to us and us to Him. We want to be good enough for God. We want God to be proud of how good we are. It's such a strong impulse, it's been Christianity's favorite heresy from the very beginning. We call it legalism, and it's at the center of all the cults, along with their denials of Jesus' deity.
Not sure where that's coming from but I agree with that EXCEPT I don't think it's his greatness that draws us - it's the Holy Spirit that draws us to him (at least according to Scripture). I don't see how the question of deity is in any way connected to those who would seek to be "good enough" for Jesus through legalism. Besides, maybe it's semantics, but it is the Father whom I desire to please (and whom Jesus sought to please and honor) - for us, that can only be done through Christ as our mediator. Jesus is not looking to be pleased and I don't know of any cults specifically directed to pleasing Jesus per se.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:29 pm
by dwight92070
darinhouston wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:54 pm
Not so fast - I won't speak for Paidion, but I don't think his main point is the fact that there is ONLY one Lord in every context but that this verse is quite explicit in them being different from one another - one x and one y
Dwight - As you put it, there is one x and one y in this verse, i.e. one God and one Lord, supposedly different from one another. Yet Thomas shows us that they are indeed One and the same: "My Lord and my God", speaking to Jesus, who affirms his faith. Peter affirms that they are One and the same in 2 Peter 1:1-2. In Hebrews 1:8, 10, the author affirms that they are One and the same.
Dwight - The Bible is filled with places where God, the Father, is called Lord. There are also places where the Lord Jesus is called God, admittedly not as many, but they are there nonetheless. There are seven direct references to Jesus being called God, and many indirect references.
D
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:12 pm
by dwight92070
Romans 9:5 "... of whom (are) the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ (came), who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:01 pm
by dwight92070
Another piece of evidence is found in Romans 9:5 "...of whom (are) the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ (came), who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." NKJV
It's amazing how more evidence just keeps showing up, as we read through the scriptures. I expect to find more.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:27 pm
by dwight92070
The words "Mighty God" are only used twice in the Bible. The first place is Isaiah 9:6, where Isaiah prophesies that the Messiah is the "Mighty God". The second place is in the next chapter, Isaiah 10:21-22, where he prophesies: "A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God..." This also is referring to Jesus. We know this because Paul quoted verse 22 in Romans 9:27, where he says that only the remnant will be saved. In Romans 9:33, we see clearly that he is speaking of Jesus, "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." Jesus is the Mighty God that the remnant of the Jews will return to, in order to be saved.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:35 pm
by Paidion
Yes, it is true that most translations render the verse more or less as you have quoted. However, the RSV translates is as follows:
to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:5 RSV)
It indicates that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed one) and expresses praise and blessing to God, his Father (with no indication that Jesus is himself God.
As a person who has studied Hellenistic Greek for 4 years, I affirm that this is a correct translation:
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:20 am
by dwight92070
Jesus said that He "proceeded forth and have come from God". John 8:42 The word "proceeded" means "to come out of", i.e. He is the very essence or substance of God Himself. Please note that He did not say that He was begotten of the Father. That only happened at His physical birth and at His resurrection. (Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13:33) Also, He equates His word (because My word has no place in you) - John 8:37, with God's word - "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear (them), because you are not of God)" - John 8:47.
His word IS God's word, not because He was God's representative, but because He was and is God Himself.
I like Steve's analogy: If you take a bucket of water from the ocean, bring it inland, and then have it analyzed by a scientist, he would tell you that that water is the ocean, or that it proceeded forth or had come out of the ocean. But there's more to the ocean than just that bucket full. The same is true with Jesus. He is God, He proceeded forth and had come out of God. But there's more to God than just the physical appearance of Jesus. While Jesus was on earth, God was still upholding the universe, giving life to all creatures, and answering the prayers of millions.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 10:00 am
by dwight92070
At Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem in Luke 19:37-40, it says "As soon as He was approaching ... the whole crowd of the disciples began to PRAISE GOD joyfully ... shouting: 'Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;' " and "Hosanna to the son of David! ..." Matthew 21:9
It's clear that to worship Jesus is to worship God. If He was just God's representative, then for anyone to worship Him would be idolatry. Jesus Himself said, "No one can serve two masters." If Jesus is not God, then we cannot serve Him as our King and our Master, and simultaneously serve God as our King and our Master. That would be serving two masters. But since Jesus is God, it is not a problem to serve and worship Him.
Re: Jesus is God
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 11:00 am
by dwight92070
Luke 19:40 - "But Jesus answered, 'I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!' "
In Matthew 3:9, John the Baptist tells us Who it is that can bring life to stones: " ... for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham."
Not only can God give life to inanimate objects like stones, but Jesus said that those living stones would worship Him (Jesus), if His disciples became silent!
Only God is worthy of worship. Only God can give life to stones. Only God can make stones worship Jesus, because by Him (Jesus), the stones were created. Jesus is God.