Was God Love?
Was God Love?
The Apostle John has informed us that "God is Love", apparently affirming that love is His most important characteristic. We also learn from scripture that God is unchanging. If before anything was created there was something like what we understand as the Trinity, then there was a possibility of the existence of love. However, if God was ever a singularity, then in that state of being how could He have been "love" if there was no object for Him to love? Thus God has changed and become love, whereas before He was only potentially love.
Last edited by Homer on Fri May 28, 2021 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Was God Love?
I think this is a very interesting topic. It is a popular movement today and is a big part of what they call today the "Social Trinity" position. I have more thoughts in this area, but we've discussed it somewhat here before and one logical problem I see with it that's never addressed is -- let's assume this is a good argument for the existence of some multiplicity in the so-called godhead. If so, then let's follow that logic... going the next step with relevant scriptures on love, take for instance the undeniable truth that the "greatest love" is to lay down your life for your friend. If that's the case, and we are proving the Trinity's necessity by the need to have the eternal godhead "show" love, then wouldn't that love need to be sacrificial? Otherwise, God's perfect loving act waited for Calvary and that love didn't exist in eternity past.
Similar thoughts could arise for aspects of love in, for example, 1 Corinthians about love being patient, etc. How could God demonstrate this aspect of love without some deficiency in other persons of the godhead? Or if God is "essentially" Creative, how could there be a time where He didn't create?
I'd love to hear some rebuttals to that line of argument from people who ascribe to this justification for the necessity of the Trinity. I think this line of argument tries too hard, but I'm open to further discussion.
Similar thoughts could arise for aspects of love in, for example, 1 Corinthians about love being patient, etc. How could God demonstrate this aspect of love without some deficiency in other persons of the godhead? Or if God is "essentially" Creative, how could there be a time where He didn't create?
I'd love to hear some rebuttals to that line of argument from people who ascribe to this justification for the necessity of the Trinity. I think this line of argument tries too hard, but I'm open to further discussion.
- darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Was God Love?
There is a pretty thorough discussion of various aspects of social trinitarianism in:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/
Section 2.2: 20th Century Theologians and “Social” Theories
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/
Section 2.2: 20th Century Theologians and “Social” Theories
- darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Was God Love?
Previous Topic on this issue started by Matt Rose:
Love and the Trinity
https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4660
Love and the Trinity
https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4660
-
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm
Re: Was God Love?
I don't see a need for a Trinity of Gods for God to be Love. The commandment of God is to love others as ourselves. So if we can love ourselves then I'd say, God can too.
Re: Was God Love?
And would God be "Love" if there were no others?I don't see a need for a Trinity of Gods for God to be Love. The commandment of God is to love others as ourselves. So if we can love ourselves then I'd say, God can too.
Re: Was God Love?
There are plenty of people for Him to love, aren't there?
The Biblical statement is "God IS love" not "God WAS love".
The Biblical statement is "God IS love" not "God WAS love".
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Was God Love?
It has been argued here that Jesus died on the cross to enable us to be better persons, never perfect, but better. I deny this view. I believe that Jesus suffered and died the death we all deserve, not just because we are all sinners; we are actually criminal lawbreakers of God's laws.
it has been argued that God would not have His sinless Son to suffer and die for sinners any more than a man would unjustly punish a good son for the behavior of his bad sons. How would it be any better for a father to punish his good son so that his bad sons' behavior would improve? That makes no sense.
God is love, "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.... This, I believe, is the greatest demonstration of love ever known. When I was a young boy I was talking to my father, I do not know what I said that prompted his response. But he assured me that he would give up his life for me if needed. I recall being incredulous that he would do that and realized how much He loved me. However, I doubt he would have given his life for an enemy. Think of it. The human father, at least most I think, would give up his life for his child. Yet at the cross it is reversed! The Father gives His Son's life for even His enemies. The Father knows that He will resurrect His Son, but still He sees the suffering, the agony, the feeling of abandonment and then the death of the Son. And the Son, who has emptied Himself of omniscience and omnipotence, suffers and dies for us, knowing only by faith that He will be raised from the dead. Perfect faith! Perfect love!
It is difficult to make sense of apart from the Trinity or Binity. With the Trinity I see God internalizing the great debt, bearing the punishment in His Son. It is rather common to think of our sin incurring a debt to be paid. But who got paid? Certainly not Satan, who is in no position to require anything. The Father paid the debt through life and death the Son!
I am reminded of this beautiful old folk hymn, dating at least to 1835:
What Wondrous Love Is This
What wondrous love is this, O my soul, O my soul!
What wondrous love is this, O my soul!
What wondrous love is this that caused the Lord of bliss
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for my soul,
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul.
When I was sinking down, sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down beneath God's righteous frown,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul, for my soul,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul.
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing, I will sing;
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing.
To God and to the Lamb Who is the great 'I am';
While millions join the theme, I will sing, I will sing;
While millions join the theme, I will sing.
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on, I'll sing on;
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on.
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing and joyful be;
And through eternity, I'll sing on, I'll sing on;
And through eternity, I'll sing on.
Great acapella version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkFbnj3dNFA
it has been argued that God would not have His sinless Son to suffer and die for sinners any more than a man would unjustly punish a good son for the behavior of his bad sons. How would it be any better for a father to punish his good son so that his bad sons' behavior would improve? That makes no sense.
God is love, "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.... This, I believe, is the greatest demonstration of love ever known. When I was a young boy I was talking to my father, I do not know what I said that prompted his response. But he assured me that he would give up his life for me if needed. I recall being incredulous that he would do that and realized how much He loved me. However, I doubt he would have given his life for an enemy. Think of it. The human father, at least most I think, would give up his life for his child. Yet at the cross it is reversed! The Father gives His Son's life for even His enemies. The Father knows that He will resurrect His Son, but still He sees the suffering, the agony, the feeling of abandonment and then the death of the Son. And the Son, who has emptied Himself of omniscience and omnipotence, suffers and dies for us, knowing only by faith that He will be raised from the dead. Perfect faith! Perfect love!
It is difficult to make sense of apart from the Trinity or Binity. With the Trinity I see God internalizing the great debt, bearing the punishment in His Son. It is rather common to think of our sin incurring a debt to be paid. But who got paid? Certainly not Satan, who is in no position to require anything. The Father paid the debt through life and death the Son!
I am reminded of this beautiful old folk hymn, dating at least to 1835:
What Wondrous Love Is This
What wondrous love is this, O my soul, O my soul!
What wondrous love is this, O my soul!
What wondrous love is this that caused the Lord of bliss
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul, for my soul,
To bear the dreadful curse for my soul.
When I was sinking down, sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down, sinking down,
When I was sinking down beneath God's righteous frown,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul, for my soul,
Christ laid aside His crown for my soul.
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing, I will sing;
To God and to the Lamb, I will sing.
To God and to the Lamb Who is the great 'I am';
While millions join the theme, I will sing, I will sing;
While millions join the theme, I will sing.
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on, I'll sing on;
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on.
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing and joyful be;
And through eternity, I'll sing on, I'll sing on;
And through eternity, I'll sing on.
Great acapella version here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkFbnj3dNFA
Re: Was God Love?
I wrote:
My mistake, I should have had the word "only" between Jesus and died.It has been argued here that Jesus died on the cross to enable us to be better persons
Re: Was God Love?
I'm glad you pointed that out. For Paul wrote:Homer wrote:My mistake, I should have had the word "only" between Jesus and died.I wrote:It has been argued here that Jesus died on the cross to enable us to be better persons
Titus 2:14 (Our Saviour Jesus Christ) who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.